Seed starting chronicles 2013

I've split this off into Seed starting chronicles 2013, Dave... even though some of your late germinators were planted well before that!  
Just hoping to encourage other seed-starters to post here if they wish to (and don't want to start separate threads)...  :)

Oops !.--Lol. ;D ;D

I am very curious about the new led grow light technology-seems to be a mixed bag of information regarding their reliability.  Does anyone have experience to share with these devices?

Re LED lights.  I don't know much about them but I know who probably does. Marijuana growers. I've stumbled upon some of their forums by accident and it's apparent those folks really know how to grow plants. I would think LEDs would be attractive to pot farmers because they don't suck the juice like metal halide or sodium vapor lights. My guess is that if you hunt up a marijuana forum you may learn something you can apply to alpines and other legal plants.

Jan

Good thought, Jan.

Ether ourselves or someone we know, I think we all have stories of avid alpine seed growers being "raided" by police because of their "excessive" use of electricity for lighting.

Regarding actual marijuana growers, I see them a couple times of year at the store where I work.  They always ask for a fertilizer with an exact nutrient formulation that no one makes (or would ever make), like 12.5-11-14.  Yes, they'll do anything to maximize growth. :D

I really hope I never get raided, but I've grown under LED for a year, and recently switched to 120 watt fluorescent. Use mylar on the walls of your grow room to increase grow area. LED is garbage, sorry. I tried so hard to convince myself that it would work, looking at the decreased energy bills. A common problem is the lights start blinking on and off after a while. Since it's hard to buy just the bulbs, most units are one piece. You get leggy growth with Fluorescent, but turn the plants often when they lean, and maybe put a small fan in your room and the stems should thicken up. Plus, our plants are not illegal like marijuana, and they're going outside in the Spring anyhow.

You can buy really expensive LED setups that work well, but expect to spend way more than they $170 for a good fluorescent setup. 120 Watts is the lowest.

I want to add, that I love marijuana grow shops, I bought Greensand, glacial flour, grow lights, mylar, coco peat, and guano at a shop in Chicago. You think you can get that at Lowes or Home Depot? Where else could I buy those things in December in Chicago?!? To me, it's what a garden supply place should be. They also sell GA-3 and IBA in any formulation you desire, powders, gels, whatever. Plus, everyone there seemed really mellow...

My seedlings under fluorescents are nice and stocky.  I think it's because I grow at around 60F.  I find that seedlings get stretched and weak if I grow them at 70F.  Also, you have to make sure that you surround the growing area with reflective surfaces, like strips of white insulating foam.  Otherwise the plants will lean in towards the strongest light.

My plants grow so well under cheap cool white fluorescents that I see no reason to use anything else.

If you want to attract law enforcement, run halide lights indoors, especially at night.  That eerie purple glow coming through your curtains will get their attention.

You are right -----not every plant likes high light and heat.

I am having good success with meconopsis this year.
I started them in a south window in December when the winter sun is not strong.
I have kept the thermostat so that the area where they are is at 60º F .
They are progressing slowly, transplanted into trays of peaty soil, and kept at 60º F

I have tried them under lights,but while they germinate faster, the young plants do not like the heat under the lights.
Most poppies are cool season plants.  Now when I do petunias----it is heat and bright lights all the way.

Having my own fresh meconopsis seed also helped a lot!  Only a couple of commercial sources send viable meconopsis seed.

Got some germination now...
Oxtropis splendens started germinating in 5 days at room temp after scarification; seeds collected last summer from my old plants which are starting to decline a bit.

Erigeron aurantiacus started germinating in 7 days at room temp; also collected from a plant in the border - it will look a lot more interesting in the rock garden.  

Trifolium nanum started germinating in 2 days at room temp after scarification.  

Trifolium andersonii v. andersonii started germinating in 2 days at room temp after scarification.  

Gentiana erectisepala - a few germinated in 15 days at room temperature after soaking seed overnight in a few drops of GA-3 solution; seed from Pavelka order received in early 2011 ; collected at 4700m, Heizi Shan, Sichuan ,China; "similar to G.algida but broader lvs, big white to pale yellow flws with blue stripes outside, alpine meadows".

I've got seed of a few Dodecatheon species from the exchanges this year and would welcome advice as when is the best time to sow please?

From a quick glance at Dr. Deno's studies (see the link here in Propagation), it looks like Dodecatheon responds to cold stratification, so I'd guess that potting up the seeds now and chucking them outside should do the trick.

GreenRoofer wrote:

I really hope I never get raided, but I've grown under LED for a year, and recently switched to 120 watt fluorescent.
You get leggy growth with Fluorescent, but turn the plants often when they lean, and maybe put a small fan in your room and the stems should thicken up.

I always assumed it was the metal halide setups... the ones that suck electricity big time... that the utilities might notice (in terms of unusual energy consumption) and hence report to the cops.  When we had one, DH did take the precaution of showing the neighbors what we were growing (tropical water lilies and other tropicals)... a bit paranoid that.  :rolleyes:  (Judging from what one reads in the news about grow-ops, illegal growers are likely to be stealing power anyway... )

Leggy growth is from not enough light, rather than from the source of the light... add another bank of fluorescents for stronger plants.  I haven't found fans to be necessary.

Here's a pot of Dodecatheon clevelandii v. insulare seedlings:

[attachthumb = 1]

Sown 12/23/12, germinated two weeks later at 60F (15C), and grown under lights at 60F.  D. pulchellum may also be a warm germinator, but the ones I've grown have needed cold.  Most other Dodecatheon species are cold germinators.  Dodecatheon will often not produce true leaves in the first growing season.  But they are making big roots.  I will be transplanting this group into a 6-inch deep pot in the next day or two, without separating the plants.  Keep them growing as long as possible.  Don't let the soil get too warm.  Plunge the pot if necessary to keep the roots cool.  Do not starve the plants.  When the leaves start turning yellow in midsummer, stop watering and let the soil get somewhat dry, but not completely dry.  When the plants are dormant, store the pot in a cool, dry place.  Provide a few months of chilling over the next Winter, but protect from temperatures below 25F.  As the plants begin growth the next Spring, plant the whole clump into prepared garden soil.  When they go dormant in the Summer, dig and separate and transplant the roots.

A mature plant of D. clevelandii v. insulare:

[attachthumb = 2]

There is nothing modest or understated about this bloom.  It's the Marilyn Monroe of shooting stars.

Also see http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=1056.0

Many thanks Lori and Gene. Our cold spell (such as it was!) has gone, been around 12C daytime for the last couple of days with rain on and off (mostly on!) it seems like forever.

Gene, did you plant the seeds rather deeply?

RickR wrote:

Gene, did you plant the seeds rather deeply?

No, I covered the seeds with just a dusting of potting mix.  I germinated them under a propagation dome, under lights at 60F.  Always the same old story, right?

They are native to southern California, but they are hardy down to 15F here.  If you don't abuse them, Dodecatheons will hang around for 10 - 20 years.

Townsendia condensata germinated in 3 days at room temp.
Trifolium dasyphyllum germinated 3 days at room temp after scarifying.

David, as we discussed somewhere else, Kristl says D pulchellum is a warm germinator, but as Gene notes, maybe not from all populations (which then suggests those populations may not really be one species! Others vary..
D pulchellum is not really summer dormant here- nothing native that I can think of offhand is- summer just isn't long enough to bother, plus midsummer is when the rain comes! After that, fall isn't far away, so the most anything could have time for is an early fall dormancy! Seriously, though, I think the Dodecatheon do die back in late summer sometime (I can't remember for sure now if any had leaves still when I was collecting seed)- but early frosts are only a few weeks away by then...

I grow Dodecatheon meadia and it goes dormant in summer...  though since it's not native to the west, the observation may not add much to your speculation, Cohan.

More germination notes...
Oxyria digyna germinated in 8 days at room temperature; a bit of locally wild-collected seed.
Salvia nutans germinated in 4 days at room temp.

Nepeta longibracteata also germinated in 4 days at room temp.
http://www.butbn.cas.cz/ladakh/fotky/flora/screes/Nepeta_longibracteata1...

I'm not holding out much hope for Townsendia condensata 'Cottonballs' from the SRGC seedex... no sign of germination (though the other pot of T. condensata germinated in 3 days).  The material in the seed packet looked like a few bits of chaff... oh, well.

I absolutely agree that legginess is from low light, but movement stimulates stem thickening, I will also apically prune leggy plants to encourage basal growth. What it really comes down to, is that I'm trying to squeeze too many plants under a grow light. I figure 12 hours a day of 120 watts probably won't be cheap. What photoperiods do you guys prop under?

I run my lights for 12 to 14 hours a day, but it's not based on any scientific reason.  

If you figure out your kilowatt-hours of electrical usage per month, you will be able to figure out the cost.  For example, if you are running 120 watts total lamp power:
120 watts * 0.001 kw/watt = 0.12 kw.  
12 hours/day * 30 days/month = 360 hours/month.  
So your kilowatt-hours are 0.12 kw * 360 hours/month = 43.2 kw-hours/month.  
Now find out what your electric rate is, say 10 cents per kw-hr.  
So your cost is 43.2 kw-hours/month * $0.10/kw-hour = $4.32/month.

If your light setup is in a heated area of the house, almost all of that energy will help to heat the house.  So your additional energy cost to run the lights is almost nothing.

Dodecatheon dormancy:  we have dry summers here, and all Dodecatheons go dormant if you don't irrigate.  I grow clevelandii v. insulare, hendersonii, jeffreyi, meadia, and pulchellum.  In the high mountains, jeffreyi barely has time to set seed, so it doesn't have a summer dormancy. 

Is anyone here using the high output T5 flurorescents? I've read about them lots and have cactus and succulent friends using them with great results- far more light output than regular fluoros -even c+s requiring intense light do well, plants do not have to be a couple of inches from the lights as with regular fluoros, and relatively energy efficient. More expensive to buy though! but one friend bought hers as simple hardware without the fancy reflectors you will see in aquarium or hydroponics shops, set up her own reflective apparatus and paid much much less..

I hadn't even heard of high output T5s until a few weeks ago.  I use regular T5 28w.

Lori, thanks for being thorough and consistent with your germination info.  You know I am recording it ;D.
And thanks for the link of Nepeta longibracteata.  What a cool plant!

I use the old-fashioned T12 cool white lamps because I have a lot of lamps and fixtures that are still in good shape.  This is what tomatoes and peppers look like under T12s:

[attachthumb = 1]

T5s are more efficient, but T12s do a perfectly good job.  The side reflectors really help with plants that need a lot of light, especially big plants like this.

A lot of people have grown cacti and succulents under T12s or the slightly more efficient T8s (which is what I have now) permanently for many years, but high output T5s are a lot better for light intensity. It depends a lot on what you are growing and for how long, how many uints you want to install etc. Contrary to what one may think, not all C+S for example actually need the most extreme light exposure, since they may grow sheltered by bushes, rocks etc in nature, but there are those plants that really do need maximum exposure (some caudiciforms for example) that just aren't easily grown under the old shoplights.
Of course we're really just talking about seedlings here, and if they etiolate a bit, it can usually be rectified when they go outside.. I am more interested in better light for some of my permanent indoor plants- especially winter growing South African bulbs!

My fluorescent lights are T12's that are on for 14 hours per day on a timer.  The lights themselves appear to be the same as what Gene is using... 4 foot long, 2-bulb reflectors.  In my case, each bulb is 40 watts, just regular cool whites and warm whites.  Right now, only 2 of these are on (overtop 2 trays of pots), but with time as more pots germinate, the rest will come into use (640 watts total). 

Astragalus purshii - germ in 6 days at room temp after scarifying
Rhodiola rhodantha - germ in 6 days at room temp
Salvia cryptantha - germ in 20 days at room temp

I'm trying a couple of batches of Dodecatheon pulchellum seed in warm conditions.  I'll let you know what happens.  See also http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=1056.0

I decided to try growing some western native US species, I'm growing them in 50/50 sand gravel with a little coco peat to hold at least a little moisture. In a window planter, in my closet under a grow light;

Silene armeria
Arabis alpina
Erysimum capitatum
Campanula rotundifolia
Linum perenne
Aquilegia caerula
Eragrostis spectabilis

I'm stoked to see what comes up, these are all seeds that were labeled to not need any seed treatments prior to prop. Mostly from Everwilde, so I'm not sure if they treat them with anything before sale. I've had great luck with their seed prop advice in the past, but I feel their advice only applies to their seed. Their seed prop requirements are almost always different from other sources I read for the same species.

An urge to clean out my refrigerator prompted me to sow just about every seed I'd saved up from years past and all the new ones.  As a result, I have about 350 seed pots holding an odd assortment of seeds.  Everything went out in the weather with no special treatment.

We've been stuck at 40 degrees most days and nights for almost a month now, so I was surprised to see things starting up already.  Sowed in December, 2012, and germinating in January:  Arabis aculeolata, Balsamorhiza rosea, Calandrinia umbellata, Codonopsis pilosula, Delphinium andersonii, Dodecatheon clevelandii ssp. insulare, Primula munroi, Primula waltonii, Saussurea sp., and Symphyandra armena.  The dodecatheon was a Ron Ratko collection in 2003, the arabis in 2005, and the balsamorhiza in 2006.

Also germinating but from a January 20012 sowing are Cyclamen graecum anatolicum, Eranthis pinnatifida, and Lilium humboldtii var. ocellatum.

Heaven help me when it's time to pot things on or plant them out. Many will go to our local NARGS chapter's plant sales (thank goodness). Seed growing is an addiction for me!

That's lots of pots, Claire! I need to do something similar to get caught up..

Everwild is new to me, looks like fun to go through :)

Claire, Good for you!
For various reasons, most of us experience an overall germination rate of around 50% with our endeavors of species previously tried and untried.  That is, around half of the species planted have no germination at all (for the first season, at least).  Now doesn't that make you feel better, that you will only have to deal with 175 pots?  :o :o :o

I found it interesting in the eranthis thread on the SRGC forum, that some Eranthis sp.  have two seed leaves, and some just one.  http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9951.msg265963#msg265963
Eranthis (Shibateranthis) pinnatifida should only have one.

Cockcroft wrote:

We've been stuck at 40 degrees most days and nights for almost a month now, so I was surprised to see things starting up already.

Most of those you mention are listed as warm germinators.  Obviously, it has not been 40F all winter for you, but it's a testament to nature's diversity and adaptability.

-------------------------------------
When I bought some bags of Fafard 52 mix (which is basically ground bark), I also got some Metro 360 (coir) to play with.  This ground coir is finer than what I envisioned, and it holds a lot more water than I expected, too.  GreenRoofer, I will be interested to see (in the future) if you formulate any preference, good or bad, with the coco peat.  I see it as the same as the Metro 360 I have.

Well, with the Coco peat, my frame of reference is peat moss, which I love and hate. The coco peat isn't hydrophobic when wet, which I REALLY like. I've read the pH is more neutral so that's good. My soil mix for alpines so far has been -

80% equal parts sand, pea gravel, perlite, fuller's earth (oil sorb)

20% half and half coffee grinds and peat moss

The coffee grinds seemed sustainable to me, but after a month they stop draining. The peat moss might be making the mix acidic, so I added a little liquid iron to my watering. I've only got two planters with my 'desert soil' mix, which is half and half sand/gravel and a few handfuls of coco peat. I've never worked with anything this lean. I'm very excited! The only thing is, it's way too heavy, at least 80 lbs. I wish I had added a bunch of perlite. I don't like the way perlite floats up to the top, it draws my eye and looks cheap to me. But my back appreciates it. 

RickR wrote:

Cockcroft wrote:

We've been stuck at 40 degrees most days and nights for almost a month now, so I was surprised to see things starting up already.

Most of those you mention are listed as warm germinators.  Obviously, it has not been 40F all winter for you, but it's a testament to nature's diversity and adaptability.

Rightly or wrongly (maybe someone can tell me which; in any case, I'll pull out the books and refresh my memory)... I've never taken Deno's results completely literally.  I've always assumed that "warm germinators" were just those that don't need fluctuating temperatures to break down germination inhibitors, not that they actually need warm temperatures to germinate... ?
Similarly, I've always assumed that the details of Deno's practices (e.g. 3 month temperature periods) were made constant for the purposes of experimental integrity (i.e. for consistent comparison with the control sets).   For example, it may be that some species actually need that long a chilling period, but that many don't and will germinate when once brought out to warm temperature after a shorter period...  ??

Wow, sounds like a great start for a lot of cool things, Claire!

I don't bother neither with different germination regimes nor soil mixtures. I usually make  a mixture of some ordinary garden soil, sand, grit, perlite and peat.  I place almost all the pots outside and let them experience the natural weather and usually have very good germination. If they start germinating during the winter months they are brought inside. The problem starts later when the seedlings can be damaged by slugs and other critters as I have to place them outside again due to lack of space inside.

Here are 4 pots (of about 20) with seedlings brought inside. Two with Helleborus, one with Trillium and one with Erythronium. They've been outside since last winter till germination started in January.

Lori- your comments put me in mind of Alplains germinations guidelines where each species that needs cold stratification is given a specific number of weeks- 4, 8, 12  etc..

Hoy wrote:

I don't bother neither with different germination regimes...  I place almost all the pots outside and let them experience the natural weather and usually have very good germination.

So you are actually cold stratifying the seeds but you are letting nature do it for you... the perfect solution.  :)
I would do this too (used to do a lot of it) but it is not until late in spring that the seeds sprout outdoors here under natural conditions.  By stratifying indoors, I can get a few months of indoor growing, and have reasonably-sized seedlings to plant outdoors in the same season... at least that's how I rationalize it.  Being able to stratify seeds outdoors and yet get germination early (i.e. during what is still the depths of winter here) is definitely an advantage of living in those zone 7-8-ish maritime climate areas!

Hoy wrote:

I don't bother neither with different germination regimes nor soil mixtures. I usually make  a mixture of some ordinary garden soil, sand, grit, perlite and peat.  I place almost all the pots outside and let them experience the natural weather and usually have very good germination. If they start germinating during the winter months they are brought inside. The problem starts later when the seedlings can be damaged by slugs and other critters as I have to place them outside again due to lack of space inside.

Here are 4 pots (of about 20) with seedlings brought inside. Two with Helleborus, one with Trillium and one with Erythronium. They've been outside since last winter till germination started in January.

[attachthumb=1]   [attachthumb=2]

Same regime, same problem, different mix.

Lori wrote:

Similarly, I've always assumed that the details of Deno's practices (e.g. 3 month temperature periods) were made constant for the purposes of experimental integrity (i.e. for consistent comparison with the control sets).  For example, it may be that some species actually need that long a chilling period, but that many don't and will germinate when once brought out to warm temperature after a shorter period...  ??

You're absolute right here. And Dr. Deno does explain in detail.

Lori wrote:

Rightly or wrongly ... I've always assumed that "warm germinators" were just those that don't need fluctuating temperatures to break down germination inhibitors, not that they actually need warm temperatures to germinate... ?

I'd really like to explore this subject,  so  I started a new thread:
Warm germinators and Cool germinators

Germination update:
Sown in January, 2012 and up this week:
 Fritillaria rhodocanakis ssp. argolica
 Iris sp. (AGS -- Juno type, white)
 Paeonia veitchii
Sown this winter and up this week:
 Arabis blepharophylla                             Balsamorhiza incana
 Calochortus weedii var. vestus                Centaurium venustum (Zeltnera venusta)
 Cortusa matthioli 'Alba'                           Incarvillea compacta
 Meconopsis "napaulensis" (garden hybrid)  Nepeta laevigata
 Phyteuma scheuchzeri                           Primula orbicularis
 Primula polyneura                                  Primula waltonii
 Rhodiola heterodonta                             Silene californica
 Stenotus stenophyllus
 Lots of Meconopsis baileyi and its hybrids

I have a number of things to sow, some of which I'm finding recommendations for several weeks of warm before cold treatment- not things I'd think of as warm/cold/warm germinators, such as spring ripened woodland seeds but things mentioned for example in the Ontario Rock Garden germination database as fall ripe seed, wanting a few weeks warm before cold-- eg:
Androscae carnea ssp halleri- ORG site says 6 weeks warm then 6 weeks cold
the Kootenay guide says  2-4 weeks warm, 4-6 weeks cold

Kristl says requires cold treatment, but I didn't get the seed from her, so I don't know whether that's her full recommendations...
Any thoughts? Does it need the warm before cold? I just got the seed and if I keep it at warm for too long I could be running short on outdoor stratification time..

A couple more Bupleurum stellatum- ORG says warm or cycling
Kootenay says 2-4wks warm, 4-6 cold

Campanula cenisia- ORG says warm
Kootenay says 2-4 wrm, 4-6 cold

Saponaria lutea- ORG says 6 weeks warm, 6 cold
Kootenay says 2-4wrm 4-6 cold

Does anyone generally give things a few weeks warm before cold? I give a few days usually to absorb moisture, then outside for stratifying.. At this point, we will surely have many weeks yet with freezing temps much of the time, I could probably give things a couple of weeks warm indoors before out, but in case of an early spring, I don't think I would take a chance on long enough stratifying if I kept them in for 6 weeks...

I give cold germinators at least two weeks at 60F or above.  I figure they need some warm time to imbibe (absorb) moisture.  The surface tension of cold water is very high.  But I've never done comparison studies to determine what the optimum warm time is.  According to Deno, if you give cold germinators too much warm time (like 3 months) they die.

On the other hand, I know that some seeds will absorb moisture just fine at fridge temp (40F).  I had a batch of Russell lupines germinate in 5 days in the fridge without any warm period.  Some poppies will germinate very cold.

Since just about everything responds well to the two weeks of warmth, I have standardized on that for cold germinators.  Note that I am not talking about seeds with complex requirements, like lilies with delayed hypogeal germination.

I have put things requiring cold strat directly outside other years in late winter/early spring (only a day or few of warm at most), with good results on some, but not all.. though those that did not germinate, I generally assumed the cold period was too short if it was late in the year, but who knows...
I put out a bunch a week or so back also, seed from Kristl, and her instructions for cold strat do not mention a warm period (other than, as Gene mentioned, warm/cold/wrm germinators etc, different issue). They'll have plenty of up and down at this time of year- I put them in a spot that is sunny part of the day, and we have had days up to 10C, other days forecast to be well below freezing, with nights considerably colder still..

A few pics from last spring that I neglected to add to our growing archive:

    Dietes bicolor

    Patrinia villosa

    Corydalis ochroleuca - volunteer seedlings in the garden, where an old plant finally died

Had to look up Dietes as I wasn't familiar with it; oh yes, I know it under the alternate name Moraea.

Rick, are you overwintering the Dietes plants indoors, I see that it is rated for zones 8-11, thus a tender plant. Very attractive from photos I've seen. 

I don't think one has to try too hard with Corydalis ochroleuca, seems like this one, along with C. lutea, looks towards world domination. ;) Both might be good candidates for green roof plants, as they'll grow most anywhere.  I have C. ochroleuca seeding into my stone/gravel "drip strip" around the house, a 2' wide strip around my house corresponding to the roof overhang. The area gets blazing hot in full sun, the light color walls and foundation reflecting light and heat, the plants never get watered unless blowing rain comes from the right direction. Normally I yank out ochroleuca plants whenever I see them, while the foliage is attractive, the plant spreads too much by seed, and I don't care much for the long wands of pale flowers.  But I usually neglect those growing in the barren drip strip (because I'm lazy), and they sail through heat and drought without any problem.

Overwintering Dietes indoors was my plan, but they got missed when I was separating out the winter tender species in the fall.  So they "endured" 20F before I realized my blunder.  They were quite vigorous until their death knell.

Corydalis ochroleuca is not as invasive as C. lutea here, but yes, it can be a bit too much.  Seedlings are super easy to pull at the stage in the photo, but once they get their second true leaves, it can be more tedious. 

I never considered C. lutea as a green roof plant, maybe. I have enough of it, growing in DEEP shade. Gets maybe a half hour of direct light in the summer. In my climate, it is remarkably hardy.

Corydalis lutea survives in that window box on the railing through the winter?

Yep, it has survived for two years now.

I am looking for advice on starting west Asian dry land alliums from seed.
I suspect they are spring bloomers followed by a dry summer, so would that mean they should be sown in early fall?

specifically i am looking for germination advice in the following:

Allium alexeianum
Allium ericetorum
Allium gomphrenoides
Allium scabriscapum
Allium wendelboanum

Thank you

Rimmer
SE MI Zone 5
5" snow cover today

Rimmer wrote:

I am looking for advice on starting west Asian dry land alliums from seed.
I suspect they are spring bloomers followed by a dry summer, so would that mean they should be sown in early fall?
specifically i am looking for germination advice in the following:

Hello Rimmer, the only species in your list that requires cold treatment, best sown in fall and allowed to overwinter outdoors, is Allium alexeianum.  Most of the "big ball" Asian melannocrommyum types have hard round seed that only germinate in spring following seed set the previous summer.

The other four species will also germinate after winter cold treatment, but its not necessary, they can be sown anytime, including spring, and germinate within 2-3 weeks, germination stimulated by exposure to soaking rain (if pots are left outside) or after being keep continually moist is pots are in a controlled environment. They are generally "easy germinators".  I don't have first-hand experience with gomphrenoides, but being a member of "section Allium" from Greece, alliums in this section are typically quick germinators.  The European to Russian Allium ericetorum, and Turkish scabriscapum & wendelboanum, are also easy germinators.  They could be sown now, placed outside, and can be expected to germinate as cool & moist spring weather arrives. 

With such species as A. alexeianum, if I were going to sow the seed, would sow directly in a prepared spot in the garden, in midsummer, to see germination spring 2014.

As for Allium scabriscapum, it is maddening that this beauty is not in general cultivation, it's a real beauty.  I have a few 2-year seedlings and hope one day to have blooming size plants. Some good images here:
http://www.vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/sca/index.htm

McDonough wrote:

The European to Russian Allium ericetorum, and Turkish scabriscapum & wendelboanum, are also easy germinators.  They could be sown now, placed outside, and can be expected to germinate as cool & moist spring weather arrives. 

Then would you say they would germinate better at 50 or 60F, as opposed to 70F?

Some seedling photos -
Patrinia gibbosa - germinated in 8 days at room temperature with no pretreatment; photo 7 days after germination:

Geum rivale ex. Leonard's Variety - germinated in 7 days at room temperature with no pretreatment; photo 7 days after germination:

Silene asterias - germinated in 7 days at room temperature with no pretreatment; photo 7 days after germination:

Astragalus purshii - germinated in 6 days at room temperature after scarification; photo 17 days after germination:

Trifolium nanum- germinated in 2 days at room temperature after scarification; photo 20 days after germination:

Oxyria digyna - germinated in 8 days at room temperature after scarification (Sorry, correction - not scarified; I was copying and pasting from the previous entries and failed to notice the difference); photo 20 days after germination:

Rhodiola rhodantha -germinated in 6 days at room temperature after scarification(Correction); photo 17 days after germination:

Lori- did the Rhodiola need scarification? Atypical for Crassulaceae..

No, sorry, I didn't scarify the Rhodiola seeds.  That was another error from my too hasty cut-and-paste.

Good to know, Lori, tks :)

I sowed two batches of Dodecatheon pulchellum from two different sources on 2/2/13, and kept them at 60-65F.  Neither has germinated.  I've put them outside for cold treatment.  I have never seen this species germinate at warm temps.

Good to know, Gene; if /when I sow some of my locals I'll let you know what happens..

Sown on Fe 24 and kept at warm, germination by Mar 01 at least (I hadn't checked for a couple of days):
From Mesa Gardens seed (I include the Mesa catalogue numbers as those are often referred to  for the various collections):
283.63-Echinocereus viridiflorus DJF1470 n Hot Springs, SD   

383.2-Escobaria missouriensis Garfield Co, Mt     

410.09-Escobaria vivipara /18/ McHenry Co, ND       

From a private trade:

Escobaria vivipara JWA014.  Spruce Woods Provincial Park, MB

Another Echinocereus (triglochidiatus) and a couple of Agaves sown the same time at warm not yet showing anything; also numerous Pediocactus and several Sclerocactus sown at the same time and put out for cold strat, along with various non cactus alpines etc...

Taraxacum faeroense - germinated in 4 days at room temperature.  Thanks for the seeds, Cohan!

Lots of potting-on done this weekend...
Carduncellus mitissimus - germinated in 12 days at room temperature.

Trifolium andersonii v. andersonii - germinated in 2 days at room temp after scarification; now at 34 days from germination.

Trifolium nanum - germinated in 2 days at room temp after scarification; also now at 34 days from germination.

Erigeron aurantiacus - germinated in 7 days at room temp; also now at 34 days from germination.

Erigeron caespitosus - I didn't note when this one germinated but it was also pretty rapid and at room temperature.

Salvia tchihatchevii - germinated in 22 days at room temperature; now at 27 days old; seeds from Pavelka (description: 900 m, Cankiri, Turkey; suffruticose low subshrub 20-30 cm, deeply cut leaves, whitish pink flws, stoney slopes, 2009 seed).

And more yet to pot on:
Dianthus pinifolius - germinated at room temperature.

Nepeta podostachys - germinated at room temperature.

Good to hear those Taraxacum germinated! I was worried maybe the seed needed to be absolutely fresh.
Just a note, for me, they have not wanted full sun (at least not while potted, just got some in the ground in fall) and don't seem to like to be dry at all....

Thanks for info, Cohan... (though I can't promise that I will baby them... I'm afraid it's survival of the fittest around here. ;) )

And in a different soil, aspect etc they may be happy with different conditions- and simply being in the ground is very different than the (deep) pot mine was in for a long time, since when I got the cutting, I had no place to plant it out.. my impression is that it is a species of some sort of boggy area, rather than a dry scree etc, though I'm not certain of that. The one I've put in the ground so far, I put at the foot of a rock bed in the low end of the property, a little below grade, but it hasn't been there long enough to judge.

Catching up...
The pots of various Androsace spp. were brought out of the cold room on March 2-3 after 6-7 weeks in the cold.
Androsace bisulca v. brahmaputrae - germination started at 6 days at room temp
Androsace hedraiantha - germination started in the cold Mar.2
Androsace hirtella - germination started in the cold Mar.2
Androsace incana - germination started at 6 days at room temp
Androsace spinuliferum - germinated started at 3 days at room temp
Androsace squarrulosa - germinated started at 6 days at room temp

Campanula incurva - germination started in the cold after 6 weeks chilling
Campanula scoparia - germination started in the cold after 6 weeks chilling

Cryptantha caespitosa - germination started in the cold after 6 weeks chilling

Cryptantha humilis - 6 weeks chilling; germination started in 2 days at room temp

Cryptantha paradoxa - germination started in the cold after 6 weeks chilling; (NB. Alplains says this one doesn't need stratifying but recommends scarifying).

Various Eriogonum spp. were given 6 weeks cold and brought out to room temp on March 3...
Eriogonum lobbii - germ started at 6 days room temp
Eriogonum ovalifolium v. eximium - germ. started in the cold on March 2
Eriogonum robustum - germ started in 2 days at room temp
Eriogonum sphaerocephalum v. sphaerocephalum - germ started in 2 days at room temp

Eriogonum thymoides - germ started at 2 room temp

Delphinium menziesii - germ started in the cold after 6 weeks chilling

Physochlainia orientalis - germ in 13 days at room temp; no pretreatment; I grew these last year also but found that the seedlings did not do well after a while and planting out was not very successful (well, more accurately, a total failure!)  Is there some trick to this plant?

Erysimum capitatum var capitatum - germ in 3 days at room temp with no pretreatment; at ~30 days after germination:

I'd share a photo of Ramonda myconii, and Ramonda nathaliae now that they have germinated, but I don't have a microscope to fit to the camera! ;D These have to be the smallest seedlings I've ever germinated.... hope to keep them going!

The pots of various Androsace spp. were brought out of the cold room on March 2-3 after 6-7 weeks in the cold.

Lori, how cold is your cold room?? Does it go below freezing in there?

Hi, Amy.  The temperature in the cold room is 46 deg F right now.  The temperature varies a bit but it doesn't freeze (except perhaps in directly under the air vent where we don't put anything anyway). It's on the northeast corner of the basement and the room stays very cool all summer.  The walls that separate it from the adjacent furnace room and bathroom are insulated.

Gordon, I know what you're saying!  I'm trying to grow Ramonda too and I can hardly distinguish the teensy little plants from some tiny bits of moss in the pot.

Gordon, the only way I've ever been able to grow Ramonda and Haberlea is by placing the pots in a sealed plastic bag, and growing them under lights at around 60F.  They need lime and fertilizer.  But as soon as you fertilize them, the moss will start growing, unless you have sown them on grit or something like that.  They are a big challenge.

http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=71.msg722#msg722

That's good to know, Gene.  Thank you for sharing your experience!

Same from me, Gene. Mine are planted in small trays- commercial potting soil with an addition of oyster shell grit, and then top dressed with vermiculite. The whole thing is under one of those seed starting "greenhouse" domes, and everything seems to be going fine. Just look forward to when the plants are large enough to prick out into separate pots.

Seedlings of various members of the Fritillaria subgenus Liliorhiza are beginning to shoot up now,  ;D

Oh my gosh, Ron, there's a Fritillaria army there!  :o

You planted these last fall?  I remember (I think) in one of Ian's Bulb Logs from years ago, he mentioned that some were having success with the American species planting in the spring, and he was planning on testing this out.  Don't know whatever happened, though...

I always sow in early December Rick. This is the same time that I start watering the bulbs, (the exception being F.striata, which I sow / water early November, as it like to be up and running here by December ). Seems to be good for all species, (under my conditions of course ).

What size pots are you sowing in Ron? They look pretty big ???

Depends upon the species David. For my own use I split the Liliorhiza into three growing 'styles'. The surface dwellers ( e.g. F. camschatcensis, F. dagana, F. maximowiczii ), those just below the surface ( F. pudica, F, affinis, F. recurva, F. ojaiensis, F. atropurpurea etc. ) and the deep species, ( F. pluriflora, F. agrestis, F. biflora, F. liliacea etc ). These categories are based on my observations of them growing from seed, here in UK, in my own media and conditions. I am sure that variations on these categories can be found in the 'wild' depending upon local conditions. The bulbs are formed at different depths and left there. These categories dictate pot size, as I have learned that ( again , for me) the best way to reach flowering size consistently is to sow the seed and never re-pot. I believe these plants resent disturbance ( even when 'dormant' ). It seems that most people who fail with bought bulbs of this group do so in the first year. If they can be established beyond the first year then they are really not to difficult to grow. I use the ' so called' deep rose pots style for all species. For the surface dwellers and just below 1 ltr. pots ( as shown here ) are adequate. For the 'deep dwellers' I use 3 ltr. Watering all 'categories' well when in growth ( and keeping the surface dwellers constantly moist all year) and then insulated without water ( for the other two categories,  definitely not baked or any such nonsense, try to maintain a constant 'cool' soil temp. ) until following December when they get their first watering.
This has worked well for me here. I do have many hundreds of plants coming to flowering size and hope that by flowering many individuals some experience of the variation within each species can be documented.

Well though out Ron, I thought they looked like rose pots.

They're the 'civilised' pots and 'specials' David. Some clones of F.affinis, F. atropurpurea and F.pudica produce such copious amounts of seed that they are sown in 3 foot long x 2 foot wide x 18 inches deep thick plastic 'fish storage' type boxes. ;D ;D .
This year I was able to plant out many hundreds of four year old F. affinis seedlings into a 1/4 acre grassy area of the garden. If they survive their first year I'm hoping I can liberate their brethren from their pots and let them do their thing 'au natural'! I supplemented this with a good number of bought in bulbs also for genetic variability.
Eccentric or just obsessed?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;D

I always use oversized pots for bulbous plants.  The soil mix has more stable temperature and moisture.  The roots grow bigger, and so the bulbs get bigger faster.  When the plants go dormant and I stop watering, there is still some moisture down deep in the pot, which simulates natural conditions.

Actually, I've gone a step further and am now plunging the entire undivided clump of seedlings into the garden beds in late April or early May.  This gives me the best results of all.  But this won't work if you let slugs, rodents and birds run rampant.  I use inverted 17 inch flats to protect against rodents and birds.  I use Metaldehyde slug bait.  I'll post a photo when I get a chance.

Edit:  Here I am using inverted 17" flats to protect seedlings:

[attachthumb = 1]

I'm certainly going to give your 'clump and all' technique a go next year Gene,  8). Certainly the stoloniferous ones ( F. camschatcensis, F.dagana and F.maximowiczii ) would benefit greatly from this approach I think. They start to produce stolons in their second year and soon are just running round and round in the pots. Letting them loose like you do seems the right thing to do.

If I only have a couple of seed or have 'begged' a few grains of rice from a particular form, I use these deep plastic plug modules. It means many plants can be grown together ( making handling easier ) without an overload volume of potting mix per plant. As each plug is 6 inches deep, the plants still get some depth, and the benefits of this depth that Gene has pointed out. Again, they can stay in these modules, if required, until flowering size is achieved.

Ron - fantastic pictures of Fritillarias germinating. Will be great to see the results of planting out so many F. affinis. I have three or four different types of this in the garden and they all do well. It's a big encouragement to try more species outside.

Hi,

If anyone is interested, I created a blog with my seed starting techniques for various species, siting successes and failures.  It's ongoing, but several species have germinated.  Here is the link and my list of species.  I put an asterisk by the ones that germinated.

http://chris-wyse.tumblr.com

Also, I'll probably have extra plants later this spring.  If anyone wants some and I have them to spare, I'll give them free if you provide postage.

Chris

Interesting, Chris.
From your blog:
"Better Method for GA-3 Treated Seeds
If there were no need to determine germination rates, the following method would probably be easier for raising gentians or any other seed requiring a chemical treatment.
Fill a small vial with the chemical (GA-3) solution at the desired concentration.  Add the seeds to be treated, and leave them in the solution for the desired number of days.  Then empty the solution and seeds into a coffee filter, and wash thoroughly with water.  Sow the seeds directly on the growing medium."

How did you establish that this method is "better"?  Better in comparison to what, also?

This seems to be the same method as recommended by Kristl Walek (whether it was original to her, I don't know) with the exception of rinsing the seeds prior to planting.  (Deno, by contrast, recommended putting GA-3 directly on the moistened paper towel.)  Just wondering what you are comparing it to, and what criterion is being used to say it is better (faster germination?, more germination?, better growing-on results?, easier to handle?, etc.).

Tim wrote:

Ron - fantastic pictures of Fritillarias germinating. Will be great to see the results of planting out so many F. affinis. I have three or four different types of this in the garden and they all do well. It's a big encouragement to try more species outside.

The trial is Tim growing them amongst tall growing 'thuggish' grasses. I, like many others have found that this species is very good in a cultivated bed / border. It does seem to thrive still amongst grasslands in the USA ( probably in areas where it was formerly cultivated for food ), hence my experiment, here in UK. No matter how wet our summer, I think the prodigious grass growth will keep down the soil moisture levels. We'll see in a few months!

Hi Lori,

My "Better Method for GA-3 Treated Seeds" is strictly easier regarding handling.  It's what I would do the next time.  I'm comparing it against the Deno method, which is what I used this year.  It's a real pain to try move the seeds/seedlings later on - in my opinion, especially for small seed, it would be much easier to be able to sow directly in the soil.

I didn't see the post or article by Kristel Walek.  I suggested rinsing the seeds because that was what Deno did, and I would want to limit GA-3 exposure to a set time frame (in my case, I used 10 days).  I've seen other posts where the GA-3 was added directly to the soil.  Maybe that would be just as good, if not even easier.  As long as you could go for the appropriate amount of time without needing to water, there would be one less step.  I assume that watering would remove the GA-3 from the soil.

Anyway, I wouldn't expect better germination with the "better" method.

Hope that clarifies - sorry for the confusion.

Chris

Nice blog, Chris.

  I really appreciate the detailed information. 

Thanks for the additional info, Chris.   I was not meaning to grill you but just wondering what "better" was in comparison to.  It sounds like "better" refers more to avoiding Deno's paper towel method (due to difficulty in handling seedlings that have rooted into the paper towel?) than being specifically about use or effectiveness of GA-3... ?  

(It might be worth mentioning that the paper towel method that has come to be named after Deno (though he writes that it came to him from another person, Margery Edgren) was said to be useful to him since it minimized watering and took up very little space - important, I'm sure, when one is conducting simultaneous experiments on huge numbers of species and seed batches of each.  In his first publication, he says "about five hundred experiments can be conducted in one cubic foot"... that kind of puts everything into perspective.   :o  )

My reference to Kristl Walek was just referring to the instructions she sends out when one orders GA-3 from her, which is basically what you described (other than the part about rinsing off the seeds).

No problem Lori.  You weren't grilling me.  Clarification never hurts.

Regarding Kristl, I didn't order my GA-3 from her, so I didn't receive the instructions.

Chris

Some seedlings that were started under lights over the winter:

Campanula choruhensis, sown 12/23/12, transplanted into 5" deep bands:

[attachthumb = 1]

Edraianthus serpyllifolius major, sown 1/8/13, transplanted into 5" deep bands:

[attachthumb = 2]

Edraianthus graminifolius, sown 1/10/13, transplanted into 5" deep bands:

[attachthumb = 3]

Anthyllis montana, sown 1/19/13, transplanted into 5.5" deep bands:

[attachthumb = 4]

Jeffersonia dubia (seeds from Mark McDonough), Sternbergia lutea, Dodecatheon hendersonii:

[attachthumb = 5]

Lilium henryi citrinum, L. callosum, L. rosthorni, all sown 11/2012, transplanted to 2.6 liter pots:

[attachthumb = 6]

Gentianopsis crinita, sown 11/14/12, transplanted into 5" deep bands:

[attachthumb = 7]

They love the deep bands.  The roots are already crowding out the bottom.

Strong germination results there Gene, congrats on Gentiana crinita (I guess we're supposed to call it Gentianopsis crinita these days).  It is native here, there's a reserve about 2 miles from my house where this is a well know feature plant; best of luck with growing it on to flowering, it is a beauty.

Good the see the Jeffersonia dubia plants growing so well for you too.

Not sure where to put this but it shows some of the interesting results from breeding.

An interesting result from a cross I have made three years ago,first flowering.

I crossed a standard Crocus pelistericus with Crocus x gothenburgensis  (pollen parent) and sowed the resultant seed in one pot. In the original cross for the x gothenburgensis the seed parent was the Crocus pelistericus and the pollen from Crocus scardicus.

Two of the seedlings are now in flower

Pictures

Crocus pelistericus seed parent
Crocus x gothenburgensis cr468 pollen parent
Crocus - seedlings

Gene wrote:

Some seedlings that were started under lights over the winter:

They look so nice and healthy Gene.
Ps your envelope arrived and has been sown --thank you

Tony wrote:

Not sure where to put this but it shows some of the interesting results from breeding.

An interesting result from a cross I have made three years ago,first flowering.

I crossed a standard Crocus pelistericus with Crocus x gothenburgensis  (pollen parent) and sowed the resultant seed in one pot. In the original cross for the x gothenburgensis the seed parent was the Crocus pelistericus and the pollen from Crocus scardicus.

Two of the seedlings are now in flower

Pictures

Crocus pelistericus seed parent
Crocus x gothenburgensis cr468 pollen parent
Crocus - seedlings

They are all yummy  :P Tony

Cheers Dave.

Nice results for your first flowers, Tony!

Crosses are always so much more fun, intriguing, somehow more meaningful and pleasantly surprising when you do them yourself.  As you know, it's not that terribly uncommon for colors to pop up "out of no where" with Lilium hybrids.  I wonder how often it happen in Iridaceae?

Here are some of my germination records this year.  Lori, you passed along the incentive to document and save germination times and methods!
Warm germinators are put under a three shelf double fluorescent shop light set up. Cold treatment is either basement 4-10C in January, February or cold mudroom (alternates from 0C to 4C).  Longer outdoor treatment is done in an unheated greenhouse.  This winter in central Ontario, Canada we've had more snow with fewer severe dips (-25C -30C) in temperatures but longer lasting than in past years!
My simple rock garden is still snow covered but in a dry scree like area shoots are finally showing and brown is turning to green. Crocus are just starting to flower!

Arabis lemmonii germinated warm <40d
Bouteloua curpitendula germinated warm 20d
Campanula latifolia alba germinated warm < 30d
Clematis integrifolia 'Pangbourne Pink' soaked x 2hr; Germinated  warm < 30d
Cremanthodium arnicoides germinated warm in 18 days
Dioscorea caucasica germinated @ 22C <30d
Escobaria vivpara ex South Dakota germinated warm 7d
Gentiana tibetica (Nargs) germinated @5-10C < 60d
Gladiolus flanaganii Germinated @ 10C < 30 days
Incarvillea sinensis germinated warm 5d
Lathyrus vernus germinated @ 20C < 30d
Lilium mackliniae 'Naga Pink' - germinated warm < 30d
Linum perenne 'Deep Creek Blue' ex Juab Co Utah Wild, germinated warm 5d
Lithophragma affine germinated @ 5-10C  <60d
Mimulis cupreus germinated warm in 8d
Moraea alticola germinated warm in 17d
Nomocharis aperta germinated warm in 18 d
Onosma albo-roseum - 6 wks cold; then to 20C x 21d = 1strong & 1 weak seedling germinated; pot to unheated GH for further germination?
Oxytropis megalantha-scarified germinated warm in 3d
Penstemon barbatus germinated warm <30d
Petrocallis (Draba)pyrenaica WILD germinated warm in 10d
Petrophytum caespitosum germinated warm < 30d
Petrorhagia saxigraga germinated warm 5d
Phlox pulvinata blue 2cm Wyoming: Albany Co 3354m  G in 9weeks in unheated GH in plastic bag
Primula chionantha ssp sinopurpurea germinated warm  < 30days
Primula florindae red germinated warm <30days
Roscoea humeana - one seedling germinated warm; pot to basement
Salvia dorrii ssp dorrii - 3 seedlings germ warm in 8 day;s to GH for further G
Schizanthus grahamii germinated warm in 6d

Germination of pots in plastic bags starting in the greenhouse after 3 months are
Allium beesianum
Collomia debilis var larsenii
Eriogonum lobbii
Erythronium californicum
Gentiana siphonantha
Leptodactylon pungeons
Penstemon fruticosa
Saxifraga kolenatiana
Sisyrinchium striatum species wild from Chile

Wow, what a fabulous collection, Sharon!
From where did you get Arabis lemmonii?  It's not one that gets much attention though I think it's very interesting (have only seen one once).
I got home this evening from a conference and was delighted to find that Pedicularis densiflora has germinated!  My fitful previous attempts with a couple of other species were total failures.  More detail to follow...

Lori, the Arabis lemmonii came from the British Columbia Alpine Club.  I was attracted to its succulent looking leaf formation in your photo on another site!  Did you not have this in your garden?
The Pedicularis at first looks like Echium.  I’m sure it will be a relaxing plant to admire, kidding.  It seems to be of some ethnobotanical interest to some?  You never know what will turn up using Google!  Seems I received seed from this year’s Seed Exchange too but didn’t get it sown!  Will try it in a vermiculite bag.

Here are further germinations as of April 12, 2013. Seed sown in January through to the beginning of this week.

Androsace spinulifera germinated in 7 days @20C
Anemone coronaria germinated in 60 days @5C-10C
Aquilegia laramiensis germinated in 63 days @5C-10C
Astragalus chamaeleuce was scarified; germinated in 7 days at 20C
Astragalus whitneyi was scarified; germinated in 7 days @20C
Campanula thyrsoides germinated in 20 days @20C
Dianthus alpinus 'Joan's Blood' 3 yr old seed germinated in 20d at 20C
Dodecatheon hendersonii ex 'Sooke'; germination started in 60 days @5C-10C
Dracocephalum heterophyllum germinated in 7 days @20C
Eriogonum douglassi var douglassi germinated in 7 days @20C
Eriogonum ovifolium started to germinate in 70 days after alternating winter temps in unheated greenhouse
Erythronium hendsersonii started to germinate in 60 days after alternating winter temps in unheated greenhouse
Gentiana siphonantha germinated in 52 days @5C-10C
Leptodactylon pungens germinated in unheated greenhouse of alternating winter temps in 70 days
Megacodon stylophorus germinated in 27 days @5C-10C
Minuartia laricifolia germinated in 42 days @5C-10C
Oenothera caespitosa ssp crinita germinated in 3 days @20C
Physaria acutifolia germinated in vermiculite bag in 12 days @20C
Primula laurentiana germinated in alternating winter temps in GH in 60 days
Primula wilsonii germinated in 40 days @20C
Saussurea obvallata had no germination at 20C x 5 weeks; to unheated GH for alternating spring temperatures
Saussurea species gold germinated in 5 days @20C
Saxifraga kolenatiana germinated in 67 days in alternating winter temps in unheated GH
Saxifraga oppositifolia germinated in 70 days in alternating winter temps in unheated GH
Soldanella montana germinated in 80 days @5C-10C
Townsendia leptotes germinated in 4 days @20C

Middleton wrote:

Lori, the Arabis lemmonii came from the British Columbia Alpine Club.  I was attracted to its succulent looking leaf formation in your photo on another site!  Did you not have this in your garden?

No, and I've only ever seen it once in the wild, which was when I took the picture!  I must watch out for seeds.  I also found the succulent leaves most interesting.  

Another amazing collection of seedings!!  Are you filling some new alpine beds?

Calceolaria biflora - germinated in 36 days at room temperature.  I had a couple of purchased plants winter over outdoors here many years ago, so I'm hopeful...

Updates on:
Cryptantha paradoxa - germination started in the cold after 6 weeks chilling; (NB. Alplains says this one doesn't need stratifying but recommends scarifying).

Penstemon erianthus v. redactus - germinated in the cold after 6 weeks of stratification:

Eriogonum robustum - in the cold room for 6 weeks; germinated in 3 days at room temperature:

Cryptantha humilis - 6 weeks chilling; germination started in 2 days at room temp:

Eriogonum ovalifolium v. eximium - germinated in the cold after 6 weeks of stratification:

Cryptantha caespitosa - germination started in the cold after 6 weeks stratification:

Campanula scoparia - germinated in the cold after 6 weeks stratification:

Hypericum pallens - emerged in 13 days at room temperature.  But only one germinated out of 20 seeds!
   

Oenothera caespitosa ssp. crinita - emerged in 10 days (the large one) at room temperature, and the others in about 17 days.  This seed was wild collected by John Weiser (Thanks!).  I need to transplant these!
   

Phyteuma serratum - emerged in 16 days at room temperature.
   

Three Townsendia spp., all planted at the same time at room temperature.
Townsendia excapa - emerged in 12 days.
   

Townsendia rothrockii emerged in 5 days.  On the bottom left, you can see what the seed looks like, still attached to the seedling.
   

Townsendia spathulata emerged in 6 days.
   

Aquilegia canadensis Little Lanterns emerged in 17 days at room temperature.
   

Allium sacculiferum emerged in 18 days at room temperature.  When I transplanted these, the little buggers' onion smell was easily as strong as mature plants!
  And thanks for the seed, Mark!
   

Physaria didymocarpa emerged in 5 days at room temperature.
   

Erigeron pinnatisectus emerged in 4 days at room temperature.
   

Iberis taurica emerged in 5 days at room temperature.
   

Rick and Lori, your seedlings look very healthy!

Wow, lots of good looking and promising seedlings coming along.  Lori, happy to see that Allium sacculiferum is coming up well.  And what is Aquilegia canadensis 'Little Lanterns' like?

My seed sowing fell miserably behind this year, changed jobs in November and scrambling to learn the new role, was very busy and traveling quite a bit, then became ill for approximately a 3 month period, finally surgery and now recovery.  That said, I'm glad I did sow some seed last autumn, because now most flats are showing germination.

My seed flats spend the winter outdoors, protected from squirrels and chipmunks with wire mesh.  In this photo, I removed the wire on three flats, I bend the wire to be more hoop-house shaped as the leaves and stems grow.  The top two flats are Jeffersonia dubia, and the bottom flat is Epimedium grandiflorum f. flavescens 'Nanum' open-pollinated seed.  To the left of the top-most open flat, you can see more seedlings, that is Jeffersonia dubia Korean Form.

Epimedium elongatum; even with small seed pots I cover with wire mesh.

Anemonopsis macrophylla; germinated last year, flat left on ground overwinter, and young plants are ready to plant out.

I love every aspect of growing.  Even when things aren't successful, lessons learned are so valuable!

Mark, I didn't find any germination references specific to Alium sacculiferum, and I had so much of the seed from you that I planted an equal amount for two different germinating regimes:
1) Sow directly at room temperature.
2) Sow at 40F for 2.5 months, then room temperature.

Both were planted at the same time, and now it's time to bring trial #2 out of the fridge....

Aquilegia canadensis Little Lanterns is a dwarf strain.  It grows about a foot tall, and is dwarf in all respects.  I am a bit curious about the dark leaves of the seedlings.  The seed was collected from my own plant in 2012 that came from a commercial nursery in 2011.  I have never noticed that the mother plant had darkish leaves, and even though I was careful to collect seeds from only flowers that bloomed when no other aquilegia were blooming, I don't have any that have dark leaves anyway. 
   

Mimulus lewisi, sown 2/27/13, germinated at 60F, grown under lights:

[attachthumb = 1]

RickR wrote:

Aquilegia canadensis Little Lanterns is a dwarf strain.  It grows about a foot tall, and is dwarf in all respects. 

Thanks Rick, 'Little Lanterns' is exceedingly cute.  I've seen the all yellow variant named 'Corbett', didn't impress me seeing small plant in nursery centers, but now when I look via Google images, it can make a nice clump.

I have now started sowing my fritillaria and lilies in pure cat litter (Sophisticat Pink). I use clay pots which are plunged in a sand bed. Just a top dressing of grit on the pots.I feed well until they die down and then repot them firstly to look at the results and secondly to space them out. This is easy as clean white bulbs are easily seen amongst the clay granules.

Fritillaria unibracteata just germinating from a January 2012 sowing

Fritillaria crassifolia from an August 2010 sowing germinated spring 2011

Nomocharis aperta - planted 25Mar2013 at 60-65F.  Emerged in 31 days.
   

Allium carinatum ssp. pulchellum - planted 7Feb2013 outside temps. Emerged 29Apr2013.
   

Allium tricoccum - planted 19Mar2011 (dried seed),outside temps. Emerged 23April2013.
   

Other seeds up:
Allium narcissiflorum - planted 7Feb2013 outside temps. Emerged after two 70F days on 30Apr2013.
Allium ovalifolium - planted 3Feb2012 outside temps. Emerged after three 70F days on 1May2013.
Fritillaria meleagris alba - planted 3Feb2012 outside temps. Emerged after three 70F days on 1May2013, as expected.
Mertensia ciliata (Thanks Lori!) - planted 3Feb2012 outside temps. Emerged after three 70F days on 1May2013.
Oxytropis nana - planted 3Feb2012 outside temps, not scarified.  One seed germinated last season.  More emerged after three 70F days on 1May2013.

Hedysarum boreale ssp. boreale, I think.  As I was planting various species, I neglected to mark this one right away, so its identity is through a process of elimination.  Initially, I thought I might have it mixed up with Moltkia petraea, but I grew that seed last year and had taken and posted a photo for it in Seed Chronicles 2012.  (Everyone's additions here are very helpful!)  So it's not Moltkia.
So what do you think?  The seed would have come from Lori (Thanks!).

Emerged in 29 days at 60-65F.
   

A curious happening with this batch: all of the cotyledons grew in a somewhat "abnormal" fashion.  Most grew to "one side" as the seedling on the right.  But none emerged perfectly shaped, as one might expect.  Is this normal, or could it be due to some climatic factor?
   

Rick, I think the cotyledons of Fabaceae species often are warped or asymmetric. Some don't even surface.

Mimulus lewisi, sown 2/27/13, grown under fluorescents at roughly 60F:

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These are perennial in the NW USA for 2-5 years if the soil is kept moist and cool.  They are native to wet places in the mountains above 5000 feet.

Those Mimulus have really come along, Gene! I'm thinking about getting something in this genus for damp lower edges (below grade) of some rock gardens, but I don't think I got any seed yet, unless there is some in my package from Kristl..lol

Well done, Gene!

Some good success shown there folks.

Here's a few different genera sown at different depths last month ,germinating after being placed outside unprotected.

Lilium oxypetalum var insigne --seed surface sown.

Myosotis capitata ---surface sown.

Crocus biflorus ssp isauricus sown just under the surface --i scraped away a little of the mix to see what was happening....

Ornithagalium sigmoideum sown deep.

Arisaema griffithii sown deep after chilling for 5 weeks. Thumb is shown to give an idea of the seed pots.

I'll move them under cover at the end of the month to keep them going over winter.

Cheers Dave.

I continue to be seduced by seed . ;D

I understand Saxifraga longifolia is not that difficult to germinate so as an experiment last month i surface sowed half of a 'swap' on pumice and the other half on peat/grit and placed them outside .

Other than the different mixes both pots were given identical ,(as much as i could control),conditions ,each placed in a plastic bag which was tied --however after a week because of the amount of the condensation i left the bags open with the plastic ,stiff ,well above the sides of the pot to try to continue giving them a settled atmosphere.  

So far the results have been interesting .

The pumice pot is showing advanced germination compared to other one.

Followed by a couple of macro shots showing the seed in various stages of germinating on and between the rock .
 
Cheers Dave.  

Dave, have you tested other seeds on pumice?

Several seedpots have germinated the last week and now I hope for higher temperatures!
Trientalis borealis germinated after 2 winters outside. Seed from Kristl Walek. I am not quite sure of the difference between this and the European T. europaea though!

Forgot to say that the big plant in the previous replay is a weed! But surely you did understand that!

Here are something new that has germinated: Mistletoe (Viscum album). Got berries from a forumist on SRGC this spring and squeezed the seed onto several rowan and linden stems. A lot of them have germinated but climbing snails have found them irresistible! Hope some survive.

Hoy wrote:

Dave, have you tested other seeds on pumice?

Hoy

At the same time i sowed the Saxifraga above , as a continuation of the experiment i also sowed half of a portion of Ramonda and also in another pot,Physoplexis, under the same conditions on pumice and the other half sown on peat/grit with all pots placed outside in plastic bags ....... --none of those pots have sown any activity yet.

Cheers Dave.

Wow, mistletoe!

I think you win the prize for most unusual angiosperm seedling, Trond.  8)

Thanks Dave, please keep me (us) updated on your pumice experiment!

Rick, I hope I get some to reach more than the seedling stage!

Allium carinatum ssp. pulchellum planted 7 Feb inside for 2 weeks, then placed outside where they emerged on 30 April.
      30 April 2013                     22 May 13
   

Draba polytricha planted in Late May 2012, one seed emerged in 10 days and eventually withered.  These emerged 6 May 2013.
         

Iris lutescens planted 30 Jan 2012, emerged 17 May 2013.
         

Lilium nanum ex Sikkim and Lilium nanum var. flavum both emerged on the same day after 3 weeks at 60-65F under lights, then 2 weeks outside in varying temps of 40-80F and lots of rain.
   

Penstemon nitidus planted fall 2011 emerged 14 May 2013.  I planted two lots from the same batch: one with seeds that were planted as received, the other I rubbed between my fingers to remove the superficial covering and reveal the true seed before planting.  So far, only the rubbed seed has come up.
    P. cobaea seed,
  natural and rubbed.             P. nitidus
   

Penstemon speciosus wild collected in Nevada.  Planted 3 Feb 2012, emerged 13 May 2013.  A few more had germinated, but only one left...
         

Veronica fruticans (thanks Trond!) from Myking, Norway.  Planted 3 Feb 2012, emerged 17 May 2013.  Our 2012 spring started a month early so they only had a month of cold conditioning in 2012.  Apparently that wasn't enough.
         

Cardiocrinum cathayanum.  I was given a copious amount of seed as the percentage of viable seed is said to be very poor.  So I had literally covered the soil surface with seed as I planted in spring 2011.  The first seeds germinated in our very unseasonably warm March 2012.  But didn't last long.  Knowing they wouldn't be winter hardy here, the pot went into the fridge the following fall and another germinated in the fridge (by 9 April 2013) when I got around to placing them outside. What was interesting was that the soil was (accidentally) bone dry!  Amazing!  The rest came up in eight days and warmer temps (and watering!).  No sign of the original seedlings.
         

Colchicum hungaricum.  Planted 15 March 2011, these went through two natural warm and two natural cold cycles to emerge 15 May 2013.
         

Crocus speciosus planted 5 Feb 2012, and again only a month of cold conditioning, emerged 8 May 13.
         

Mertensia ciliata (Thanks Lori!). Planted 3 Feb - outside temps, emerged 1 May.
         

Silene hookeri planted 7 Feb at 60-65F, then in fridge 17 March, then outside 4 May.  Emerged 15 May.
         

I really like this topic, fascinating to see how people have sown their seed and see the results.  I take the lazy man's approach, sowing seed out in the garden for some items, and for others (equally as lazy) sowing in flats and letting mother nature do the work over winter and spring.  Here's some things germinating recently, the non-stop pouring rain for the entire last week certainly helps germination along, suddenly many Arisaema are showing.

I've had Carex appalachica for almost 10 years, one of the best species, with thread-fine foliage and tiny yellowish flowers that create a haze of tiny "points of light", I have yet to capture an adequate photo of it.  No seedlings have ever appeared, so I sowed seed collected from my plants last summer, they're coming up.  It's very slow growing (and expensive to buy), so I'm glad for the increase.

http://www.newenglandwild.org/images/plantcatalog/carex-appalachica-1.jp...

Iris lactea and an Arisaema sp., both collected in the Himalaya by Chris Chadwell.  Pleased to get such good germination on the Iris.  On Arisaema, I had about 5 species all show germination just this week, they are typically late-emerging seedlings.

Lindelofia stylosa Cc7161 (Chris Chadwell seed from the Himalaya), needs transplanting soon.

Iris cristata - seed from mixed named forms 2012, these were planted out yesterday (in the rain), about 30 seedlings.

Epimedium grandiflorum f. flavescens 'Nanum' - my seed 2012, all will be hybrids. Last year I was traveling to Dallas TX for my work, for a little over a week, and missed much of the Epimedium seed ripening.  Even so, I have about a dozen and a half Epimedium varieties germinating.

Arisaema sikokianum, just starting to germinate, sown in a large plastic salad/lettuce container (I ran out of my preferred peat flats last autumn, resorted to re-using grocery containers such as this, and blue styrofoam mushroom "flats" seen in some of my other shots.  My Arisaema seed were sown "whole berry" rather than being cleaned; each berry has 2-5 seeds in it.  Many more seedling coming up since I took this photo last week.

Jeffersonia dubia (two flats front to back), and J. dubia "Korean Form" on the left (back), with 2nd year plants of Diphylleia grayi on the left.

Glaucidium palmatum white form, on the right, and one seedling so far of Clintonia andrewsiana on the left (hoping for more); thank you NARGS Forumists!

Very impressed by your seeding result McDonough !!

I love the Arisaema sikokianum seeding !! I've this plant this year .
Where you find the seed of this plants ...It's your own produced ?

I hope i could present to you new germination this weekend !! I cross the fingers  ;D

Hoy, I'm fascinated by the mistletoe. Would a piece of copper wire wrapped around the tree branch below the mistletoe seedling possibly keep the slugs away?  Not twisted tight, just round a few times like a spring?

Paul wrote:

Hoy, I'm fascinated by the mistletoe. Would a piece of copper wire wrapped around the tree branch below the mistletoe seedling possibly keep the slugs away?  Not twisted tight, just round a few times like a spring?

Maybe it could work. I didn't realize it was a problem till the damage was done though, but the last seedlings on 3 different trunks are inspected every evening now!

Arisaema sikokianum germination from my own seed. I'm always surprised just how late these germinate, and surprised by the young trifoliate seedlings always showing such serrate leaf edges when mature plants don't. The experiment here, was sowing full berries (2-5 seeds per berry) without cleaning, and I'm convinced it works just as well as sowing cleaned seed. I'm taking the easy way sowing whole fruits, it works.

OHHHOOO very nice !

I've my first germination this year but not Arisaema sikokianum, other Arisaema .

But i've 2 Arisaema sikokianum (adult) this year but i think no seeds available.

If you've some for me for the next germination...i was very happy to have ..remember me  :D ;)

Who many year to flowering plant form this young Ariseama ?

Thanks for sharing picture!

Some picture of my germination project on growing !! ;D ;D

What do you think about that ..look good !

Primula alpicola

Polemonium pauciflorum Sulphur Trumpets

Some others

1

2

Iris setosa

The nursery on batch

Trillium seed.

I always enjoy this time of the year working inside the open weaved shade house tipping out some of the mix in every Trillium seed pot to see what’s happening under the surface.

 Pots that have some ‘action’ in them are lifted from under the benches and placed higher so I can enjoy watching them at a closer distance.

Pic 1

Nearly all the ‘action’ pots have seed at what I call the ‘bent finger’ stage, where having formed a small rhizome upon germination over the last few months ,the cotyledon is now starting  to push out and away from the near defunct seed, awaiting some warmth in early spring to appear above the surface.

Pics 2 and 3 .

However there are a couple of pots further advanced ,where the cotyledon is nearly in full growth.

Trillium rivale NZ Trillium Group Pic 4

Trillium sulcatum home seed Pic 5

Cheers Dave.

Clematis potaninii . First seedling emerged in 29 days at 68F.  Second in 52 days.

Clematis chisanensis did not sprout in 39 days of 68F.  Put in fridge for for 48 days, than outside at similar temps to sprout with natural spring warming.  Emerged in 38 days.

Castillea miniata (Thanks, Lori!).  38 days at 68F, than in fridge for a month, then outside at similar temps to sprout with natural spring warming.  Emerged in 12 days.

Silene hookeri did not emerge in 35 days at 68F.   Placed in fridge for 48 days, then outside in 55-75F temps.  Emerged in 11 days.

Lilium humboltii planted at 55F emerged in about a month and a half.  They were in a dark cellar type environment and unfortunately, I didn't catch them sprouting in a timely manner.  Now I wish I had take a photo of them in their purely etiolated state.  Very thick for etiolated petioles and there was no indication of of a lef blade at all.  With light, the end sections either widened to produce  leaves, or the ends grew more to produce the leaves.

Lilium parryi x unknown (second pic) planted at 55F in the same dark cellar conditions did not emerge after 3 months.  When brought outside with temps around 65 and light, they emerged in 7 days.

The first Iris rosenbachiana (seed collected in Tajikistan) has emerged after 4 years in outdoor conditions.  Woohoo!

(Taking over the pot is a Leibnitzia anandria volunteer.)

Some seedlings from the garden:

Corydalis cheilanthifolia, Angelica gigas, Helleborus purpurascens and Ruellia humilis.

Interested in seeing your Castilleja miniata seedlings Rick .

Many many years ago i placed 4 seeds around the base of a pot of  Arthropodium candidum as I understood it needed a host .All the seeds germinated and i had a wonderful flowering pot for 4 or 5 years .

Unfortunately I've never been able to repeat the success with any seed I've come across since and I'm wondering what is the current experience of yourself and others regarding Castilleja being parasitic ?.

Cheers Dave.

This is my first experience with any Castillea.  I never expected all the seeds to germinate!

But I have a lot to play with now (as long as they continue to grow).

A few Lilium sp. here ( names are revealed by placing cursor over the picture, or they are displayed at the bottom of the picture when enlarged ). 

Sown over a year ago and kept moist for the first couple of months. When nothing developed I let them dry out entirely, convinced that the seed was not viable. A good soaking this year and the results are OK.

Ron, to get the names to show as you want when you hover over the pic and when you click to view, you need to enter the name in the "Title" box, rather than the "Alternate text" box.  But if you don't put the name in the text of the message, please also put it in the "Alternative text" box, too, so it can be searchable (when the search engine is fixed).

I changed it for you.  You can see what I did by clicking the "edit" button at the bottom of your post.

Understood. Thanks Rick. 

Forgot to comment on your really good results.....

I've almost no luck with Lilium lophophorum seed, with only one coming up in the second year.  And like Gene, I only get one to three mackliniae germinating per season.  I would have thought drying out the seed after it imbibed water would mean sure death.  Do you think the pots really got that dry?

[quote=RickR]

  I would have thought drying out the seed after it imbibed water would mean sure death.  Do you thing the pots really got that dry?

[/quote]

To be honest, so did I Rick, but I was wrong. The pots were absolutely powder dry, under the greenhouse bench in light shade, not watered for 10 months. The same has happened for Lilium sempervivoideum sown at the same time as the others. Just showing some green through the surface today! These pots became absolutely soaked ( as much as the very gritty compost I use can be soaked ), almost by accident, and have continued very moist.

Thinking as I type, this is the exact same pattern I experience with seed of Fritillaria dagana, which shows in the second year, after a wet / dry / wet regime, although they show and grow earlier in the year.

That's really enlightening. 

Wonders never cease!

A very pleasant surprise today: I received some Salix seed from Trond some days back, S myrsinites, S polaris and S glauca. From what I could find, S myrsinites was likely to be a no go, since one page mentioned viability of less than 24 hours. S polaris had a mention of viability after longer storage-at least I think that was polaris..lol (though no description of what kind of storage), so I had a bit more hope for those, and they had reported high germination at warm. S glauca is supposed to need cold stratification, so i presumed those should still be viable.I don't know exactly when Trond collected the seed, but it had to get mailed, arrive here, and then took me a few days to get to them- so best case scenario they must have been a week or two old.

I sowed them somewhere around midnight Oct 05/ early 06. All were sown in mostly pure coir with a bit of native black wetland soil mixed in the top.Seeds spread around on the surface and sprayed generously with water to make them contact the soil. No covering. S myrsinites and S polaris were left indoors at coolish room temperature, in a tray of water, S glauca was put outside (though I will probably do another pot and leave them indoors in a cool spot).

To my great surprise, when I checked them this evening, there was germination beginning on S myrsinites! So much for less than 24hrs viability! A little later, after I sprayed the pots again, I noticed the beginning of germination also on S polaris! By this time, the S myrsinites seedlings which had just been little white nubs were actually showing green- those babies are fast!

Now to see if I can actually keep these things alive indoors all winter...

I also sowed Lysichiton americanus at the same time- with conflicting suggestions online -cool? warm? outdoors? I put one pot outdoors, and have two indoors which I will probably put in different spots.. maybe cool and colder? any thoughts welcome..

That's very useful information, Cohan.  I hope Trond can give some more insight to the true age of the seeds.

My only experience with willow seed is with my own seed of Salix repens.  I may have had another variety of S. repens (and a male) or else maybe it could have crossed with one of the other species I have.  At any rate, I planted the seed the same day the catkin dehisced.  Seed sprouted quickly, too, 4-6 days, I think.  But I didn't get them to continue for very long.

Good luck!

They are still alive- myrsinites came up in quite large numbes, S polaris much less so, but there are a few- enough for me if they actually survive till spring, still a long way to go....