Seed starting chronicles 2013

I've split this off into Seed starting chronicles 2013, Dave... even though some of your late germinators were planted well before that!  
Just hoping to encourage other seed-starters to post here if they wish to (and don't want to start separate threads)...  :)

Oops !.--Lol. ;D ;D

I really hope I never get raided, but I've grown under LED for a year, and recently switched to 120 watt fluorescent. Use mylar on the walls of your grow room to increase grow area. LED is garbage, sorry. I tried so hard to convince myself that it would work, looking at the decreased energy bills. A common problem is the lights start blinking on and off after a while. Since it's hard to buy just the bulbs, most units are one piece. You get leggy growth with Fluorescent, but turn the plants often when they lean, and maybe put a small fan in your room and the stems should thicken up. Plus, our plants are not illegal like marijuana, and they're going outside in the Spring anyhow.

You can buy really expensive LED setups that work well, but expect to spend way more than they $170 for a good fluorescent setup. 120 Watts is the lowest.

I want to add, that I love marijuana grow shops, I bought Greensand, glacial flour, grow lights, mylar, coco peat, and guano at a shop in Chicago. You think you can get that at Lowes or Home Depot? Where else could I buy those things in December in Chicago?!? To me, it's what a garden supply place should be. They also sell GA-3 and IBA in any formulation you desire, powders, gels, whatever. Plus, everyone there seemed really mellow...

My seedlings under fluorescents are nice and stocky.  I think it's because I grow at around 60F.  I find that seedlings get stretched and weak if I grow them at 70F.  Also, you have to make sure that you surround the growing area with reflective surfaces, like strips of white insulating foam.  Otherwise the plants will lean in towards the strongest light.

My plants grow so well under cheap cool white fluorescents that I see no reason to use anything else.

If you want to attract law enforcement, run halide lights indoors, especially at night.  That eerie purple glow coming through your curtains will get their attention.

You are right -----not every plant likes high light and heat.

I am having good success with meconopsis this year.
I started them in a south window in December when the winter sun is not strong.
I have kept the thermostat so that the area where they are is at 60º F .
They are progressing slowly, transplanted into trays of peaty soil, and kept at 60º F

I have tried them under lights,but while they germinate faster, the young plants do not like the heat under the lights.
Most poppies are cool season plants.  Now when I do petunias----it is heat and bright lights all the way.

Having my own fresh meconopsis seed also helped a lot!  Only a couple of commercial sources send viable meconopsis seed.

Got some germination now...
Oxtropis splendens started germinating in 5 days at room temp after scarification; seeds collected last summer from my old plants which are starting to decline a bit.

Erigeron aurantiacus started germinating in 7 days at room temp; also collected from a plant in the border - it will look a lot more interesting in the rock garden.  

Trifolium nanum started germinating in 2 days at room temp after scarification.  

Trifolium andersonii v. andersonii started germinating in 2 days at room temp after scarification.  

Gentiana erectisepala - a few germinated in 15 days at room temperature after soaking seed overnight in a few drops of GA-3 solution; seed from Pavelka order received in early 2011 ; collected at 4700m, Heizi Shan, Sichuan ,China; "similar to G.algida but broader lvs, big white to pale yellow flws with blue stripes outside, alpine meadows".

I've got seed of a few Dodecatheon species from the exchanges this year and would welcome advice as when is the best time to sow please?

From a quick glance at Dr. Deno's studies (see the link here in Propagation), it looks like Dodecatheon responds to cold stratification, so I'd guess that potting up the seeds now and chucking them outside should do the trick.

GreenRoofer wrote:

I really hope I never get raided, but I've grown under LED for a year, and recently switched to 120 watt fluorescent.
You get leggy growth with Fluorescent, but turn the plants often when they lean, and maybe put a small fan in your room and the stems should thicken up.

I always assumed it was the metal halide setups... the ones that suck electricity big time... that the utilities might notice (in terms of unusual energy consumption) and hence report to the cops.  When we had one, DH did take the precaution of showing the neighbors what we were growing (tropical water lilies and other tropicals)... a bit paranoid that.  :rolleyes:  (Judging from what one reads in the news about grow-ops, illegal growers are likely to be stealing power anyway... )

Leggy growth is from not enough light, rather than from the source of the light... add another bank of fluorescents for stronger plants.  I haven't found fans to be necessary.

Here's a pot of Dodecatheon clevelandii v. insulare seedlings:

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Sown 12/23/12, germinated two weeks later at 60F (15C), and grown under lights at 60F.  D. pulchellum may also be a warm germinator, but the ones I've grown have needed cold.  Most other Dodecatheon species are cold germinators.  Dodecatheon will often not produce true leaves in the first growing season.  But they are making big roots.  I will be transplanting this group into a 6-inch deep pot in the next day or two, without separating the plants.  Keep them growing as long as possible.  Don't let the soil get too warm.  Plunge the pot if necessary to keep the roots cool.  Do not starve the plants.  When the leaves start turning yellow in midsummer, stop watering and let the soil get somewhat dry, but not completely dry.  When the plants are dormant, store the pot in a cool, dry place.  Provide a few months of chilling over the next Winter, but protect from temperatures below 25F.  As the plants begin growth the next Spring, plant the whole clump into prepared garden soil.  When they go dormant in the Summer, dig and separate and transplant the roots.

A mature plant of D. clevelandii v. insulare:

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There is nothing modest or understated about this bloom.  It's the Marilyn Monroe of shooting stars.

Also see http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=1056.0

Many thanks Lori and Gene. Our cold spell (such as it was!) has gone, been around 12C daytime for the last couple of days with rain on and off (mostly on!) it seems like forever.

RickR wrote:

Gene, did you plant the seeds rather deeply?

No, I covered the seeds with just a dusting of potting mix.  I germinated them under a propagation dome, under lights at 60F.  Always the same old story, right?

They are native to southern California, but they are hardy down to 15F here.  If you don't abuse them, Dodecatheons will hang around for 10 - 20 years.

Townsendia condensata germinated in 3 days at room temp.
Trifolium dasyphyllum germinated 3 days at room temp after scarifying.

David, as we discussed somewhere else, Kristl says D pulchellum is a warm germinator, but as Gene notes, maybe not from all populations (which then suggests those populations may not really be one species! Others vary..
D pulchellum is not really summer dormant here- nothing native that I can think of offhand is- summer just isn't long enough to bother, plus midsummer is when the rain comes! After that, fall isn't far away, so the most anything could have time for is an early fall dormancy! Seriously, though, I think the Dodecatheon do die back in late summer sometime (I can't remember for sure now if any had leaves still when I was collecting seed)- but early frosts are only a few weeks away by then...

I grow Dodecatheon meadia and it goes dormant in summer...  though since it's not native to the west, the observation may not add much to your speculation, Cohan.

More germination notes...
Oxyria digyna germinated in 8 days at room temperature; a bit of locally wild-collected seed.
Salvia nutans germinated in 4 days at room temp.

Nepeta longibracteata also germinated in 4 days at room temp.
http://www.butbn.cas.cz/ladakh/fotky/flora/screes/Nepeta_longibracteata1...

I'm not holding out much hope for Townsendia condensata 'Cottonballs' from the SRGC seedex... no sign of germination (though the other pot of T. condensata germinated in 3 days).  The material in the seed packet looked like a few bits of chaff... oh, well.

I absolutely agree that legginess is from low light, but movement stimulates stem thickening, I will also apically prune leggy plants to encourage basal growth. What it really comes down to, is that I'm trying to squeeze too many plants under a grow light. I figure 12 hours a day of 120 watts probably won't be cheap. What photoperiods do you guys prop under?

I run my lights for 12 to 14 hours a day, but it's not based on any scientific reason.  

If you figure out your kilowatt-hours of electrical usage per month, you will be able to figure out the cost.  For example, if you are running 120 watts total lamp power:
120 watts * 0.001 kw/watt = 0.12 kw.  
12 hours/day * 30 days/month = 360 hours/month.  
So your kilowatt-hours are 0.12 kw * 360 hours/month = 43.2 kw-hours/month.  
Now find out what your electric rate is, say 10 cents per kw-hr.  
So your cost is 43.2 kw-hours/month * $0.10/kw-hour = $4.32/month.

If your light setup is in a heated area of the house, almost all of that energy will help to heat the house.  So your additional energy cost to run the lights is almost nothing.

Dodecatheon dormancy:  we have dry summers here, and all Dodecatheons go dormant if you don't irrigate.  I grow clevelandii v. insulare, hendersonii, jeffreyi, meadia, and pulchellum.  In the high mountains, jeffreyi barely has time to set seed, so it doesn't have a summer dormancy. 

Is anyone here using the high output T5 flurorescents? I've read about them lots and have cactus and succulent friends using them with great results- far more light output than regular fluoros -even c+s requiring intense light do well, plants do not have to be a couple of inches from the lights as with regular fluoros, and relatively energy efficient. More expensive to buy though! but one friend bought hers as simple hardware without the fancy reflectors you will see in aquarium or hydroponics shops, set up her own reflective apparatus and paid much much less..

I use the old-fashioned T12 cool white lamps because I have a lot of lamps and fixtures that are still in good shape.  This is what tomatoes and peppers look like under T12s:

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T5s are more efficient, but T12s do a perfectly good job.  The side reflectors really help with plants that need a lot of light, especially big plants like this.

A lot of people have grown cacti and succulents under T12s or the slightly more efficient T8s (which is what I have now) permanently for many years, but high output T5s are a lot better for light intensity. It depends a lot on what you are growing and for how long, how many uints you want to install etc. Contrary to what one may think, not all C+S for example actually need the most extreme light exposure, since they may grow sheltered by bushes, rocks etc in nature, but there are those plants that really do need maximum exposure (some caudiciforms for example) that just aren't easily grown under the old shoplights.
Of course we're really just talking about seedlings here, and if they etiolate a bit, it can usually be rectified when they go outside.. I am more interested in better light for some of my permanent indoor plants- especially winter growing South African bulbs!

My fluorescent lights are T12's that are on for 14 hours per day on a timer.  The lights themselves appear to be the same as what Gene is using... 4 foot long, 2-bulb reflectors.  In my case, each bulb is 40 watts, just regular cool whites and warm whites.  Right now, only 2 of these are on (overtop 2 trays of pots), but with time as more pots germinate, the rest will come into use (640 watts total). 

Astragalus purshii - germ in 6 days at room temp after scarifying
Rhodiola rhodantha - germ in 6 days at room temp
Salvia cryptantha - germ in 20 days at room temp

I'm trying a couple of batches of Dodecatheon pulchellum seed in warm conditions.  I'll let you know what happens.  See also http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=1056.0

I decided to try growing some western native US species, I'm growing them in 50/50 sand gravel with a little coco peat to hold at least a little moisture. In a window planter, in my closet under a grow light;

Silene armeria
Arabis alpina
Erysimum capitatum
Campanula rotundifolia
Linum perenne
Aquilegia caerula
Eragrostis spectabilis

I'm stoked to see what comes up, these are all seeds that were labeled to not need any seed treatments prior to prop. Mostly from Everwilde, so I'm not sure if they treat them with anything before sale. I've had great luck with their seed prop advice in the past, but I feel their advice only applies to their seed. Their seed prop requirements are almost always different from other sources I read for the same species.

That's lots of pots, Claire! I need to do something similar to get caught up..

Everwild is new to me, looks like fun to go through :)

Well, with the Coco peat, my frame of reference is peat moss, which I love and hate. The coco peat isn't hydrophobic when wet, which I REALLY like. I've read the pH is more neutral so that's good. My soil mix for alpines so far has been -

80% equal parts sand, pea gravel, perlite, fuller's earth (oil sorb)

20% half and half coffee grinds and peat moss

The coffee grinds seemed sustainable to me, but after a month they stop draining. The peat moss might be making the mix acidic, so I added a little liquid iron to my watering. I've only got two planters with my 'desert soil' mix, which is half and half sand/gravel and a few handfuls of coco peat. I've never worked with anything this lean. I'm very excited! The only thing is, it's way too heavy, at least 80 lbs. I wish I had added a bunch of perlite. I don't like the way perlite floats up to the top, it draws my eye and looks cheap to me. But my back appreciates it. 

RickR wrote:

Cockcroft wrote:

We've been stuck at 40 degrees most days and nights for almost a month now, so I was surprised to see things starting up already.

Most of those you mention are listed as warm germinators.  Obviously, it has not been 40F all winter for you, but it's a testament to nature's diversity and adaptability.

Rightly or wrongly (maybe someone can tell me which; in any case, I'll pull out the books and refresh my memory)... I've never taken Deno's results completely literally.  I've always assumed that "warm germinators" were just those that don't need fluctuating temperatures to break down germination inhibitors, not that they actually need warm temperatures to germinate... ?
Similarly, I've always assumed that the details of Deno's practices (e.g. 3 month temperature periods) were made constant for the purposes of experimental integrity (i.e. for consistent comparison with the control sets).   For example, it may be that some species actually need that long a chilling period, but that many don't and will germinate when once brought out to warm temperature after a shorter period...  ??

Wow, sounds like a great start for a lot of cool things, Claire!

Lori- your comments put me in mind of Alplains germinations guidelines where each species that needs cold stratification is given a specific number of weeks- 4, 8, 12  etc..

Hoy wrote:

I don't bother neither with different germination regimes...  I place almost all the pots outside and let them experience the natural weather and usually have very good germination.

So you are actually cold stratifying the seeds but you are letting nature do it for you... the perfect solution.  :)
I would do this too (used to do a lot of it) but it is not until late in spring that the seeds sprout outdoors here under natural conditions.  By stratifying indoors, I can get a few months of indoor growing, and have reasonably-sized seedlings to plant outdoors in the same season... at least that's how I rationalize it.  Being able to stratify seeds outdoors and yet get germination early (i.e. during what is still the depths of winter here) is definitely an advantage of living in those zone 7-8-ish maritime climate areas!

Hoy wrote:

I don't bother neither with different germination regimes nor soil mixtures. I usually make  a mixture of some ordinary garden soil, sand, grit, perlite and peat.  I place almost all the pots outside and let them experience the natural weather and usually have very good germination. If they start germinating during the winter months they are brought inside. The problem starts later when the seedlings can be damaged by slugs and other critters as I have to place them outside again due to lack of space inside.

Here are 4 pots (of about 20) with seedlings brought inside. Two with Helleborus, one with Trillium and one with Erythronium. They've been outside since last winter till germination started in January.

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Same regime, same problem, different mix.

I have a number of things to sow, some of which I'm finding recommendations for several weeks of warm before cold treatment- not things I'd think of as warm/cold/warm germinators, such as spring ripened woodland seeds but things mentioned for example in the Ontario Rock Garden germination database as fall ripe seed, wanting a few weeks warm before cold-- eg:
Androscae carnea ssp halleri- ORG site says 6 weeks warm then 6 weeks cold
the Kootenay guide says  2-4 weeks warm, 4-6 weeks cold

Kristl says requires cold treatment, but I didn't get the seed from her, so I don't know whether that's her full recommendations...
Any thoughts? Does it need the warm before cold? I just got the seed and if I keep it at warm for too long I could be running short on outdoor stratification time..

A couple more Bupleurum stellatum- ORG says warm or cycling
Kootenay says 2-4wks warm, 4-6 cold

Campanula cenisia- ORG says warm
Kootenay says 2-4 wrm, 4-6 cold

Saponaria lutea- ORG says 6 weeks warm, 6 cold
Kootenay says 2-4wrm 4-6 cold

Does anyone generally give things a few weeks warm before cold? I give a few days usually to absorb moisture, then outside for stratifying.. At this point, we will surely have many weeks yet with freezing temps much of the time, I could probably give things a couple of weeks warm indoors before out, but in case of an early spring, I don't think I would take a chance on long enough stratifying if I kept them in for 6 weeks...

I give cold germinators at least two weeks at 60F or above.  I figure they need some warm time to imbibe (absorb) moisture.  The surface tension of cold water is very high.  But I've never done comparison studies to determine what the optimum warm time is.  According to Deno, if you give cold germinators too much warm time (like 3 months) they die.

On the other hand, I know that some seeds will absorb moisture just fine at fridge temp (40F).  I had a batch of Russell lupines germinate in 5 days in the fridge without any warm period.  Some poppies will germinate very cold.

Since just about everything responds well to the two weeks of warmth, I have standardized on that for cold germinators.  Note that I am not talking about seeds with complex requirements, like lilies with delayed hypogeal germination.

I have put things requiring cold strat directly outside other years in late winter/early spring (only a day or few of warm at most), with good results on some, but not all.. though those that did not germinate, I generally assumed the cold period was too short if it was late in the year, but who knows...
I put out a bunch a week or so back also, seed from Kristl, and her instructions for cold strat do not mention a warm period (other than, as Gene mentioned, warm/cold/wrm germinators etc, different issue). They'll have plenty of up and down at this time of year- I put them in a spot that is sunny part of the day, and we have had days up to 10C, other days forecast to be well below freezing, with nights considerably colder still..

I never considered C. lutea as a green roof plant, maybe. I have enough of it, growing in DEEP shade. Gets maybe a half hour of direct light in the summer. In my climate, it is remarkably hardy.

Yep, it has survived for two years now.

I am looking for advice on starting west Asian dry land alliums from seed.
I suspect they are spring bloomers followed by a dry summer, so would that mean they should be sown in early fall?

specifically i am looking for germination advice in the following:

Allium alexeianum
Allium ericetorum
Allium gomphrenoides
Allium scabriscapum
Allium wendelboanum

Thank you

Rimmer
SE MI Zone 5
5" snow cover today