Bottle Gentians

How timely!  Gentiana clausa is in bloom here too, from seed 3(?) years ago... not native to this area, as you can see in Mark's USDA link, but a nice one for some fall colour.

Skulski wrote:

How timely!  Gentiana clausa is in bloom here too, from seed 3(?) years ago... not native to this area, as you can see in Mark's USDA link, but a nice one for some fall colour.

Nice to see the blue complement to the white G. clausa, such attractive plants.

There are some very similar "bottle gentians", and quite honestly I don't know how to tell them apart, in particular, how does one tell Gentiana clausa apart from G. andrewsii, and from G. saponaria?  My Peterson guide "A Field Guide to Wildflowers" gives some very subtle differences in the flower structure of the three species.  And then there are two other bottle types, G. alba, and G. linearis, which are more readily distinguishable.  Gentiana quinquefolia is also listed as a bottle type, but in this species the flowers do open noticeably.

G. linearis photos:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=photos_index&where...

G. alba photos:
http://wisplants.uwsp.edu/scripts/detail.asp?SpCode=GENALB

Are there good books or keys to these confusingly similar N. American bottle gentians?

Interesting plants, but if they don't open how are they pollinated? Are they cleistogamous?
The similar plant here, G. purpurea, opens a little in warm weather and flies visit frequently.

Hoy wrote:

Interesting plants, but if they don't open how are they pollinated? Are they cleistogamous?
The similar plant here, G. purpurea, opens a little in warm weather and flies visit frequently.

Trond, I've been admiring Gentiana purpurea on some of the travelogue types of posts on SRGC, certainly qualifies as a bottle gentian, and an imposing handsome one at that.  If you click on the North Creek Nurseries link in my first post above, it explains how the flowers of G. clausa are pollinated by large bees that are able to muscle their way in.

McDonough wrote:

There are some very similar "bottle gentians", and quite honestly I don't know how to tell them apart...

Good point!  I assume the plant I showed is G. clausa... I think that's what the seed packet claimed, but is it?  I don't know for sure. 
It's odd that we can use the internet to look up full descriptions of many exotic Asian plants, but that it's hard to find the same detail on North American flora.

China has its counterpart bottles...Gentiana triflora is one and the other is Gentiana uchiyamae, shown here (at least that what the seeds came as).  It also opens a little during realyy sunny, warm days.  It is blooming right now.

Todd, Gentiana uchiyamae is very nice, I do like these bottle gentians.

Back to Gentiana clausa, what separates it from G. andrewsii, is that the petals, which are joined together near the top, have petals tips that are free (or above) of the connecting membrane.  In the photo I upload, where I stretch the pleated petals open, you can see that the petals tips are well above the fringed connecting membrane.  In G. andrewsii, the fringed or toothed connecting membrane is equal or above the petal tips.

Gentiana saponaria has similar characterics as G. clausa, with the petal tips well demarcated above the fringed connecting membrane, so to tell these two apart, G. saponaria has much more erect upright sepals, whereas on G. clausa, the sepals stand horizontally or are otherwise reflexed (in my photo, you can see the reflexed or horizontally orientated sepals).

Open up the flower on G. clausa alba, and using a small stick to open the flower, there was lots of pollen, so I manually pollinated the flowers in case there were no bees squeezing into the flowers, but this made me think of hybridization potential :D

So, what would you say I have here then? 

I think what I have growing in the backyard is G. clausa alba - a closed white gentian.  As for pollination, Hoy, I believe bumble bees do the job.  Have frequently watched them wiggle into the flower and then work rather noisily inside before pushing their way back out.  Bumble bees seem to be able to "bumble" in where honey bees fear to tread.  Fran

I was in Ontario last weekend speaking to the Ottawa Valley and Southern Ontario Rock Garden Societies.  Wjile in Ottawa I was taken to a meadow where bottle gentians, Gentiana andrewsii, where blooming.  I was surprised thye were more purple than blue.  The one I grew years ago must have been G. clausa as mine was deep blue.

Congratulations and welcome Lis ... a beautiful photo to open with.

Sorry to be late in replying, have my nose to the grindstone working on some deadlines.

Lori, I'd say your gentian is indeed G. clausa.

Lis and Todd, nice photos showing Gentiana andrewsii for comparison, the little slightly "protruding fringe" is the key identifier.  I found the following web site giving more specific information about how to tell them apart; the connecting membrane on andrewsii have tiny teeth (protruding) whereas in G. clausa the membrane has rounded lobes (not protruding).
Gentiana andrewsii - Natural Heritage Endangered Species Program, State Status in Massachusetts: Threatened
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/nhesp/species_info/nhfacts/gentiana_andre...

Lis and Todd, I also find it interesting, or curious, how both G. clausa and andrewsii, are missing from the more eastward Canadian provinces (New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, PEI, and Newfoundland), and in the case of G. andrewsii, also missing from Maine.
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=GEAN

So, I took a little drive down to the Nashua River today, about 1-1/2 miles away, to drop off a squirrel to new environs ;), and lo an behold, there were bottle gentians near the boat launch area... never noticed them before.  There were mostly going over, shading to a dark purple, but a few plants still had fresh flowers of a good blue.  Only G. clausa and andrewsii are possible here, and checking them through the key identifiers, I have concluded they are G. clausa.  I was hoping they might be G. andrewsii, a species that is Threatened Status in Massachusetts, one that I have never seen in this State.  Their were lots of plump seed pods, and because G. clausa is not on any watch list, I can collect some later.

Endangered Gentians, Gentian Research Network
http://gentian.rutgers.edu/endang.htm

We have no true gentians in Newfoundland although Gentiana nivalis does occur in northern Labrador.  We do have Gentianopsis detonsa and Gentianella amarella and G. propinqua...unfortunately they are annual-biennial and very difficult in cultivation.  Here is Gentianopsis detosa ssp. nesophila.

My bottle gentians (G. clausa), in both the white and purple-blue forms, are budding up getting ready to bloom. Just as a test, last autumn I sowed a flat with seed collected from my G. clausa alba, and they came up thickly this spring.  Here's a view of the seed flat back in mid July 2011.

Excellent germination! 

And not only germination - but you have managed to grow the seedlings afterwards!
I have often gotten good germination with Gentian seed but always failed in growing them on. Two years ago I sowed G purpurea seed in situ and now I have several small plants ;D

Some aspects of my white Gentiana clausa this season.  The plant has grown vigorously, and each stem produced multiple whorls (2-3) of bloom (verticillasters, a type of fascicle).  Difficult to photograph well with my phone-camera, the color is fairly true except the ones showing a bluish cast (there is no blue, just pure white with the apex a yellowish green).  I must say, I like the white form better than the purple blue ones.

They look great Mark! I have had a preference for blue gentians but in this dull weather we have had for weeks now I realize white flowers do a better show!
Disappointingly slugs like the bottles .. I mean the flowers too :(

(note: message edited to reflect corrections)

Trond, here's a couple of blue bottle gentions, Gentiana clausa on the left photographed today in my garden, a seedling collected at a boat-launch along the Nashua River, it flowered this year while still quite small, at about 6" tall.  The second photo is from The Garden In The Woods (display garden of the New England Wildflower Society), which I thought to be G. clausa, is most likely G. saponaria with tall reclining stems about 2' long.

Thanks, Mark. Is yours a different blue or is it just the picture? If G clausa gets 2' tall then it isn't easily swamped by neighbours - maybe a plant worth trying here!

Lis wrote:

Are we sure these are G. clausa? The one from Garden In The Woods looks more like G. andrewsii. The two are very similar, but G. andrewsii has little white tufty tips to the 'bottles'. Or are both called G. clausa now? I have G. andrewsii here and it is indeed a fine garden plant. If if gets enough moisture, it doesn't flop. It can handle sun, again if it gets enough moisture. One of my favourite native plants!

Lis, you are probably right... I jumped to a conclusion that the one from Garden In The Woods was G. clausa, when I look back at this thread you posted a lovely photo of G. saponaria that does show those tiny fringy things at the top of each bottle bloom (although a fairly subtle differentiation). These two species seem too closely defined!  I edited my post above to reflect the correction, thank you.

Finally got around to dividing and planting out my seedling flat of Gentiana clausa alba.  The seedlings had grown in so thickly, that I simply separated them into "plugs", then planted them around the garden and watered them in.  Now, if the only the squirrels were not so tempted to bury their stupid acorns where the ground is softest; in newly planted areas.  Notice the front-center portion of the seedlings have been grazed by a small slug, rare in my dryish garden, but we've had so much rain this summer and fall.

McDonough wrote:

Finally got around to dividing and planting out my seedling flat of Gentiana clausa alba.  The seedlings had grown in so thickly, that I simply separated them into "plugs", then planted them around the garden and watered them in.  Now, if the only the squirrels were not so tempted to bury their stupid acorns where the ground is softest; in newly planted areas.  Notice the front-center portion of the seedlings have been grazed by a small slug, rare in my dryish garden, but we've had so much rain this summer and fall.

In my garden that is what had been left (at most).

Does anyone know or grow either of these two native USA gentians... they look closely allied to other bottle gentiana species.  I found a Flickr photo of G. decora that sings to me; would love to find seed of these:

Gentiana decora
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan_cressler/3965187010/in/photostream/
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=GEDE3&photoID=gede3_1h.jpg

Gentiana villosa
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=GEVI5
http://plants.usda.gov/java/largeImage?imageID=gevi5_001_ahp.tif

Cleaning up today, 11-15-2011, removing leaves and cutting stems off perennials, Gentiana clausa 'Alba' is sprouting like crazy with short asparagus-like basal shoots; I cut off 5 large flowering stems from this season, and there are 14 new shoots, and additional shoots showing up several inches away, implying some stoloniferous behavior.  I plan on spreading leaves around the shoots for winter protection.

McDonough wrote:

Cleaning up today, 11-15-2011, removing leaves and cutting stems off perennials, Gentiana clausa 'Alba' is sprouting like crazy with short asparagus-like basal shoots; I cut off 5 large flowering stems from this season, and there are 14 new shoots, and additional shoots showing up several inches away, implying some stoloniferous behavior.  I plan on spreading leaves around the shoots for winter protection.

Those shoots are very promising... but, also, I would guess  (they remind me of  yummy fresh asparagus shoots!)  they might be tempting not only to a passing slug, but aslso to hose furrytailed rats that you are bemoaning elsewhere inthis forum?  Is there not a real danger that these shoots will prove an irresistable snack for some critter or other over the winter?
I think that such shoots are targeted here by mice as well as slugs and snails.

Fortunately not much of a slug problem here, even in a wet year, and I've never found a snail on my property. Squirrels don't seem to munch on plants that I know of (with the exception of occasional crocus flowers), their damage is almost entirely driven by acorn-lust and associated digging activity.  Squirrels do of course go for seed, pods, and nuts of most any variety.  In winter, mice are the primary cause of plant and shoot damage, have had my share of losses over the years from winter-active mice under a mantle of icy snow.

The shoots do look like little asparagus spears :)

After a nearly snowless winter, the autumn shoots of Gentiana clausa alba never missed a beat, and look perfectly healthy today.  While it was a relatively mild weather, we still had our fair share of freezing weather, and what can be worse, freezing temperatures with gusting wind and no snow cover.  The "asparagus" will be ready soon :D