Erythronium americanum - how to get it to flower

McDonough wrote:

I heard the tip about planting the rhizomes over a rock, but others report this has not worked.  Any suggestions?

I too would like to hear any suggestions! I have grown this species in more than 10 years and neither got any flowers!

What is it about these rice-tuber erythronium and their shy blooming?  I've had americana for 10 years plus and I get maybe 4-5 blooms per year.  Dens-canis is even more shy.  Meanwhile, at work we have a huge clump in our woodland bed, about 25 years old and it blooms like crazy!  Here is a photo from last spring.  I still believe there are blooming clones and asexual-propagation clones and I (we) seem to have the latter.

Boland wrote:

What is it about these rice-tuber erythronium and their shy blooming?  I've had americana for 10 years plus and I get maybe 4-5 blooms per year.  Dens-canis is even more shy.  Meanwhile, at work we have a huge clump in our woodland bed, about 25 years old and it blooms like crazy!  Here is a photo from last spring.  I still believe there are blooming clones and asexual-propagation clones and I (we) seem to have the latter.

That's what I want mine to look like !!!! >:( >:( >:(  Thanks Todd for showing us what it can do, great photo.  I think you're right, there must be free-blooming clones and shy-or-non-blooming clones.

I've never heard of Erythronium bulbs referred to as rice-tubers.  What exactly are you referring to?

Rick it is a term I coined...I have heard of Frits producing masses of tiny bulbs around the part bulb...they are often referred to as rice...I think crocus can do the same.  Erythronium dens-canis has tooth-shaped tubers and the masses of baby tubers do indeed look like rice grains, hence rice-tubers!

On the subject of rice,  I was pretty excited the first time I saw it on some Fritillaria camschatcensis bulbs a NARGS member sent me from wild stock in Alaska.  But I wonder if each "grain" is actually already a bulblet on its own, or if shoot initiation is spurred only upon separation from the mother bulb.  Frit bulbs are quite unlike those of Lilium despite thier close relation, in that they generally have far less scales, sometimes only two, and seedlings (with my limited experience) seem to start with a seemingly quite undifferentiated single scale of considerable size.  They remind me of the white tubers of the Hog peanut (Amphicarpaea bracteata) here.

But back to getting Erythronium americanum to bloom, I have a patch that's about 8 years old, spreads a bit every year, never flowers.  I know it was collected from a "flowering clone" because the person who gave it to me was an elderly woman who, as many used to do, went into the woods and collected wildflowers to grow in her garden.  Her enormous mat never flowered either. I think I know the place she found her plant, a steep hillside in a local city park that every year is covered with trout lily blooms, much like Todd's picture.  Could it be an excess of something in the soil, or a deficiency of some sort? A plant or fungal association? Has anyone tried doses of potassium or bone meal?  This has always been a mystery to me, but then the plant is above the ground for so little time of the year I never get around to experimenting before it's gone, and then I forget it's even there.

I can honestly say the population at the BG has had NOTHING done to it in the last 20 years!  The soil is pretty acidic and very peaty...I have similar soil in my own garden for them but still mine don't bloom but those at the BG are spectacular!

Hi, Lis!  Welcome to the site!  
I don't have an answer to your cultivation question, but I did want to answer your question about how one "signs off".

You can simply type something, needless to say, to end off a message, or if you wish, you can go to the top of the page, and click on "Profile".  "Profile" shows you how your personal information will show up when you make postings.  If you wish, you can type your name, a message, or whatever, in the section called "Signature", and that will then serve as your "sign off" on postings you make.  (Of course, you can change it any time, later.)
All the best and I hope this helps!

Hello Lis,  that's encouraging that you've been able to enhance flowering a little bit, although still hard to draw concrete conclusions about what it is that stimulates flowering.

Regarding your question "How do you sign off on this thing??", I interpret this as "how do I log off of the NARGS Forum".  You have two options.  Near the top of any NARGS Forum page, the is the general options menu bar, with HOME on the left side, and LOGOUT on the right-hand sign.  You can choose LOGOUT, then close your browser window after logging out.  Next time you access the NARGS Forum to post, you will need to login again.  This is the most secure option.

If on the other hand, when you first login to NARGS Forum, you can select the option to stay logged in.  If that option is selected, you can simply close the browser window without manually selecting LOGOUT.  If you do it that way, next time you access the NARGS Forum, you'll automatically already be logged in.

Lis wrote:

I have moved several blooming plants into my garden, and they all bloomed again this spring, even the one that got pulled up by some critter and left to dry out on top of the soil. In one case the blooming plant is now surrounded by 5 small leaves. It'll be interesting to see if and when they bloom.

This also makes me wonder if there is a maturity aspect to the equation.  Since bulbs continued to flower the next season despite adversity, perhaps it is getting over that "hump" out of vegetative mode into reproductive mode that is a (the?) hurdle.  What pushes it over the hump is the question.

Another clue....maybe: with many Lilium species, if the conditions are too dry, the bulb tends to break up into many small, non-blooming bulbs, rather than remain as one large, flowering bulb.  I have witnessed this myself, with more than one Lilium hybrid with widely differing parentage, and there were no outward signs of water stress.  The same bulbs replanted in more moisture retentive soil produced large, floriferous plants.  So this might be interpreted as supporting the "ideal" moisture conditions encouraging reproductivity, versus dry that fosters a vegetative mode.

Um yeah, not a big revelation, but perhaps something to build on.

There is also a vegital form of E. americanum that does not flower. These individuals make up about 99% of a given population of this species. The distinguishing characteristic of the vegital plants are a single basal leaf and no flower (Wein, 242).

Here is a link to this site I thought you all might like to see it if you have not already.

http://www.discoverlife.org/nh/tx/Plantae/Monocotyledoneae/Liliaceae/Ery...

James wrote:

There is also a vegital form of E. americanum that does not flower. These individuals make up about 99% of a given population of this species. The distinguishing characteristic of the vegital plants are a single basal leaf and no flower (Wein, 242).

Here is a link to this site I thought you all might like to see it if you have not already.

http://www.discoverlife.org/nh/tx/Plantae/Monocotyledoneae/Liliaceae/Ery...

I assumed this to mean that 1% do flower, and 99% never flower, or 99% of the plants don't bloom because they had not developed to the mature (flowering) plant.  But reading your link, neither of these is the case.  According to Wein, a flowering plant will likely return to a vegital role in the population (Wein, 243).  This is a curious genus!

I have the 99% that don't flower at all!

I have thousands of these and most bloom every year.  I read that they like cooler temperatures and will grow bigger if cooler.  They bloom best if there is a slow Spring with a delay between snow melt and the leafing of the canopy.  I presume that if it gets hot rapidly in the Spring, that flowering will be affected.  There is an abstract I read at http://www.jstor.org/pss/2445130 which says they do better if some large trees are removed occasionally.  That might be true because I have many Abies balsamea which are a very short-lived tree, snapping off at the trunk after 40 or 50 years.   

CMiller wrote:

I have thousands of these and most bloom every year.  I read that they like cooler temperatures and will grow bigger if cooler.  They bloom best if there is a slow Spring with a delay between snow melt and the leafing of the canopy.  I presume that if it gets hot rapidly in the Spring, that flowering will be affected.  There is an abstract I read at http://www.jstor.org/pss/2445130 which says they do better if some large trees are removed occasionally.  That might be true because I have many Abies balsamea which are a very short-lived tree, snapping off at the trunk after 40 or 50 years.   

Cool temperatures are no problems here! Do your plants get lot of water?

Yes, indeed, the plants are practically in standing water in many areas and yet, they bloom nicely.  This standing water occurs when the ground is still frozen but the snow melts.  If I stick a shovel in my ground when it thaws in the Spring, the hole quickly fills with water.  There are areas with sphagnum too and lots of rotted wood and leaves. 

Thanks Connie. I think I have to move some of my plants to a wetter and sunnier place. Where they are now they have to compete with some shrubs (Neillia and rhodos).
Your property seems to be a very exciting piece of land! I would say that the flooding is a pro and no contra. I would have been very careful with what I planted not to disturb the native flora and fauna too much.

I have grown Erythronium for twenty or more years at Denver Botanic Gardens where it blooms reliably: I have only one miserable picture to prove it...I have others I may locate sooner or later. It is actually one of the best Erythroniums I grow. It has spread to make quite a patch and comes up in the midst of other plants (like the Veronica armena and Pulsatilla in this picture). It is in a very rich peat bed with a north facing aspect but otherwise in full blasting Colorado sun.

I haven't had good luck with Erythronium americanum (full disclosure) although I recall spectacular woodlands full of it on the Cornell Campus in late April...I have been wanting to re create that some time!

Kelaidis wrote:

I have grown Erythronium for twenty or more years at Denver Botanic Gardens where it blooms reliably: I have only one miserable picture to prove it...I have others I may locate sooner or later. It is actually one of the best Erythroniums I grow. It has spread to make quite a patch and comes up in the midst of other plants (like the Veronica armena and Pulsatilla in this picture). It is in a very rich peat bed with a north facing aspect but otherwise in full blasting Colorado sun.

I haven't had good luck with Erythronium americanum (full disclosure) although I recall spectacular woodlands full of it on the Cornell Campus in late April...I have been wanting to re create that some time!

It seems they take sun but dislike competition from strong growing shrubs and trees. I have to remove some of mine, I think.

Those at our Botanical garden are growing in full morning sun but afternoon shade....any too themselves with no competition.  The soil is quite wet in fall-winter-spring and even in summer, never fully dries.  My shy bloomers at home are from a different source and have to fight it out with many neighbours.  The 'plants' don't mind...they have even spread happily into the lawn but flowers are scanty, although better blooming than 1%!  I have to get some of the strain from our BG as they are soooo free-flowering.

Todd wrote:

Those at our Botanical garden are growing in full morning sun but afternoon shade....any too themselves with no competition.  The soil is quite wet in fall-winter-spring and even in summer, never fully dries.  My shy bloomers at home are from a different source and have to fight it out with many neighbours.  The 'plants' don't mind...they have even spread happily into the lawn but flowers are scanty, although better blooming than 1%!  I have to get some of the strain from our BG as they are soooo free-flowering.

Todd, I've been sitting on the fence on this one, is there a cultural problem that inhibits flowering, or perhaps some forms are just better flowering than others.  Based on your comments, I'm going to side with the latter.  I'd be happy (maybe) with even the 1% blooming that you report, I've had my plants for about 10 years, and they have never flowered (0% flowering), but are spreading happily around.

So after 9 or 10 yrs from the original posts has anybody figured out how to get more blooms? I'm in zone 4, the white mountains of NH and it's probably the most common wild flower out in my woods. 1 out of 5,000 might bloom. I've moved blooming and non blooming ones to my shade gardens. Soils if pretty much the same as where they were growing, maybe a bit better because I have plenty of horse manure to add to my gardens. None bloom. They grow. They spread.

I even see them blooming in very deep shade in the woods. So light and temps aren't a factor. I do pass this one maddening clump growing in a cleft in a ledge on the highway that blooms heavily. The ledge drips water encasing the plant in ice all winter. You would think it would suffocate but it's always loaded come spring. Sadly the traffic is too heavy to safely stop so I can get a closer look and figure out exactly what is going on there.

I  have recently relocared to Down East Maine and discovered that Erithroniums here bloom profusely and thrive in the harshest conditions.  I am curious about the possibility of a local strain or perhaps something about the soils and climactic conditions affectiong bloom-any thoughts or suggestions to this mystery are welcome.  I previously lived in Central New York where my experience was similar to Mark and Sue

Hello Sue and Harold, wow it's been almost 10 years since I started this topic, where did the years go? Based on both of your experiences, adding to the likelihood that there are certain free-flowering clones and essentially non-flowering clones, I'm choosing that explanation. So, I have little else to add other than one day I would like to try seed or tubers sourced from a free-flowering form.

Not sure I can buy that explaination. It's a very common flower on my property and time and time again I've dug up a bloomer and put it in my shade garden only to have it never bloom again. Plenty of healthy leaves but no blooms.

 

Maybe if I threaten it with the rototiller. I've tried just about everything else.

Same problem in my NC woodland garden near Asheville. They are growing robustily in a grassy walkway rarely mowed, where they are competing with all sorts of other plants like firepinks, wild phlox, carex, etc.. Some flower very well but when moved into better prepared beds, they stop flowering. I just remembered something I read years ago (Wilder book? or early RG magazines?) that there should be a stone placed at the bottom as the plants have a tendency to pull themselves deeper and deeper and then stop flowering. Anyone else remembering something like that? I plan to try again this coming spring and put a flat stone at the bottom of the planting hole. Native Erythroniums are so beautiful, the foliage alone is gorgeous, I am willing to try just about anything.

I suppose it never hurts to try, but that's just what the stone theory is: a theory. Obviously, the blooming ones you have and that are in the wild are not sitting on flat stones. Different clones definitely do flower better than others. If that's the whole story, probably not. I suspect it has just as much to do with the soil flora - the right associated fungi, mycorrhizae, etc. A "beautifully" prepared bed, void and destructive of anything natural, might be exactly what the plants don't want. I am good friends with a biology/botany professor in northern Wisconsin. Many years ago with one of his visits to Minneapolis, he asked me if there were any plants he could bring me. I had a couple 25 year old arborvitae that I never remove the fallen debris under. Consequently, it has created a wonderful forest duff. I told him about this, thinking it would be a perfect place to try pipsissiwa (Chimaphylla umbellata) that is native to where he lives. He said that while the soil macro characteristics were right, the soil flora ecosystem under arborvitae is drastically different from that under pines where pipsissewa grow. Even if he brought his native soil with the plant, he was very hesitant that the right soil associations would survive.

I live in the mountains of east TN, and have been at my current property almost 11 years. I have around 10 acres, and over half is deciduous woodland. The most common wildflower by far here is Erythronium americanum. I have thousands, and it's really beautiful when they are in bloom. I'd say in a given year at least 2/3 and sometimes more of them flower. In the past few years, I have seen them starting to come into the yard, at the edge of my small lawn area. So far I haven't seen these flower. So I wonder if maybe there is some association in the woods with a mycorrhizal fungi that isn't present in my yard, or garden plants in general. In the woods, there are numerous small groupings and about three huge patches that spread for literally hundreds of feet, punctuated by areas where none grow at all. There is no obvious difference that I can see, and other flowers like bloodroot and rue anemone grow in these areas. Although not as abundant as my woods here, the closest I have come to seeing this many trout lilies was when I lived in central NC 30 years ago. There they grew on the bluff above a river. Much of my forest is steep hillside. So in terms of habitat, they seem to really prefer almost vertical slopes, which suggests they need good drainage. The leaves here come up in February, they are at the peak of bloom sometime in March depending on the year, and the leaves persist through April. I'll keep an eye out next spring to see if I can determine any other patterns, since this seems a very long-running thread.