Allium 2010

This is the best caeruleum I have ever seen! I try to establish alliums at my summer cabin, especially those flowering in late June - early August. There it is more summer warmth and sun than at home and a bit drier too! (If you get too many bulblets ... let me know!)

After A. paradoxum var. normale, the first of the Alliums to bloom here each year, the second is Allium zebdanense.  The first photo shows how this species makes a fine clump of narrow arching foliage in a woodland setting. The second photo shows it growing in full sun at early anthesis.  In sun it will flower earlier and go over more quickly, often with the foliage turning yellow after a couple days in early retreat to dormancy, whereas those grown in shade or part shade will flower later, last longer, and maintain the attractive narrow arching green foliage much longer.  Nearly sterile in the form I grow, it'll occassionally makes a bit of seed and a few welcome seedlings show up. 

Photos 3-4 were taken in the garden of my friend Marsha Russell, where a marvelous moss and lichen covered outcrop serves as backdrop to a fine stand of thus showy allium growing in a mostly shaded location.

First of the Acanthoprasum allium are blooming here, and judging from my 10 year photo records, I'm in need of doing some propagation and replanting to reinvigorate declining plants.  Large clumps of A. karataviense 'Ivory Queen' have all but disappeared, although they are cheap enough to buy a fresh supply in the fall.

1-2  Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' - the cultivar name given before var. henrikii was published, but evidently they are the same.  The first two photos show this really attractive form in the garden now, the leaf and flower size smaller than in previous years.  For what it is worth, I am maintaining the name 'Red Globe', as photos I've seen of var. henrikii, show it to be quite variable is size, density of the inflorescence, and flower color; always red toned but some are much deeper colored than others, so I'm of the opinion that this plant is best named A. karataviense var. henrikii 'Red Globe' to distinguish it from less worthy forms of var. henrikii.

3    Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' in 2008

4    Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' in 2000, with foliage of other karataviense color forms in background.

5-6  Allium species aff. ellisii, at early and mid anthesis.

Mark, do you feed your Alliums? My Alliums like karataviense tend to grow smaller and smaller and ultimately stop flowering. Only wild ones and some smaller species proliferate.
Here's one of the few wild onions of Norway, A. scorodoprasum. Not the showiest but stout and majestic when the tallest plants reach 1m or more in a few weeks.

Allium thunbergii certainly presents no permanence problems here; but the color is just a bit off to my taste,
? slightly muddy mauve purplish, rose pink.  I don't recall my source and am not sure if it was supposed to be Ozawa, but I think not.  Is Ozawa a clearer color?  Or is there variation in color?  Have the white too, which is white.
On the other hand, Allium oreophilum 'Agalik Giant', had stunning flowers, though the inflorescence careened off to one side.  Plant did not show the next spring.  Planted 2 more last fall, no show in the spring.
Charles Swanson NE Massachusetts USA z6a +/-

Hoy wrote:

Mark, do you feed your Alliums? My Alliums like karataviense tend to grow smaller and smaller and ultimately stop flowering. Only wild ones and some smaller species proliferate.
Here's one of the few wild onions of Norway, A. scorodoprasum. Not the showiest but stout and majestic when the tallest plants reach 1m or more in a few weeks.

An overdue response.  No, I don't feed Allium plants, in fact, I don't feed any garden plants.  I have seen Allium karataviense in botanic gardens looking monstrously large and over-blown, the enlarged leaves and abnormally large flabby inflorescences no doubt due to planting in rich soil and heavy feeding.  I have noted upon return to these same gardens in subsequent years, the same gross displays were not there, probably dying out from over feeding.  I believe in growing bulbous plants, such as A. karataviense, hard and lean.

A. scorodoprasum is as you say, a stately plant, one of the larger species lending scale and vertical substance to a garden... I like such plants, even if not the showiest in flower.

externmed wrote:

Allium thunbergii certainly presents no permanence problems here; but the color is just a bit off to my taste,
? slightly muddy mauve purplish, rose pink.  I don't recall my source and am not sure if it was supposed to be Ozawa, but I think not.  Is Ozawa a clearer color?  Or is there variation in color?  Have the white too, which is white.
On the other hand, Allium oreophilum 'Agalik Giant', had stunning flowers, though the inflorescence careened off to one side.  Plant did not show the next spring.  Planted 2 more last fall, no show in the spring.
Charles Swanson NE Massachusetts USA z6a +/-

Hiya Charles, I find such things as color preferences, and even plants in general, often come down to personal likes/dislikes.  I don't find the color of Allium thunbergii to be a bit off in any way, I rather like the color very much.  I have grown numerous A. thunbergii forms, and 'Ozawa', and the color is pretty much the same rosy-purple color.  It should be noted that the white form is really a clean white, without a trace of other colors, and is very good indeed.

Now, regarding A. oreophilum 'Agalik Giant', I feel somewhat the same way you do about A. thunbergii, with the color being a bit off in my opinion... but let me explain.  First of all, I got mine as A. oreophilum 'Torch' years ago.  Janis Ruksans assures me this is the same as 'Agalik Giant', and that I got mine under a then provisional name early on... although I still call mine 'Torch'... I like that name.  The flowers are bigger, showier, and in more dense heads than regular A. oreophilum, the cultivar a fine plant to be sure.  However, the flowers, like many Alliums, have a "bloom" or dusty coating on the flowers, which under certain light conditions can have the effect of making the flower color appear dull.  On certain days, and in certain light, the flowers strike me as extra fine, and at other times, less so and a bit off.  But regardless, this is a fine variety that far surpasses A. oreophilum for garden worthiness.

Sorry to hear your plants of 'Agalik Giant' did not come back for you, twice!  Makes me wonder if indeed the 'Torch' selection is identical to 'Agalik Giant' after all, as 'Torch' has been with me about 8 years (too late at night to go run out in the rain and check my label to verify the stats :D).  I have in years past, scratched in seed around the parent plant, to increase the small colony.  I include a few photos taken recently. Send me a personal message and I can save you some seed.

It should also be noted, that in years of sufficient moisture, the thick blue-grey leaves will remain intact at flowering, but under drier conditions, such as our many recent weeks or warm to hot weather without much moisture, the foliage definitely started into early senescence and yellowing by the time the flowers appeared, a common oniony occurrence.

Thanks Mark for the information.  My photo was taken under heavy morning dew so less than optimal for comparison.
"In the past someone suggested to Antoine Hoog that the typical Agalik was unsightly (with its twisted stem) and suggested that he picked a straight-stemmed form of what was otherwise a very good plant.
Torch is the result, a super plant selected by Antoine."  (rareplants.co.uk)

(Mark McD:  Here's the link to the RarePlant.co.uk site with Allium oreophilum 'Torch':
http://www.rareplants.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=3288&strPageHistory=related)

Random additional allium news bits: the plant I bought as insubricum from Evermay last year, came back larger (with 5 growths) this spring, but still small.  (Not on list this year) A second I bought at the same time was DOA.  Someone was selling a "bigger growing" A. cyaneum this spring and seems to be 8" at a glance.  Haven't really had time to investigate.
Charles Swanson NE Massachusetts USA

Agalik  (with decidedly crooked stem--leaned over onto the ground)

Previously I posted information from Dr. Eric Block, Professor of Chemistry, University at Albany, SUNY, and his recent book "Garlic and Other Alliums - The Lore and The Science" published by the Royal Society of Chemistry.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4757.msg145659#msg145659
I recently heard from Dr. Block and received updated information about the book and various speaking engagements and radio/tv interviews, so I'm posting that information here.

The hardcover version of the book has sold out.  However a paperback (softback) version is now available ($39.95 in the U.S., 25 GBP in the UK).
hardcover - http://www.rsc.org/shop/books/2009/9780854041909.asp
paperback - http://www.rsc.org/shop/books/2010/9781849731805.asp
Dr. Block  gave a free lecture on Allium science at the New York Botanical Gardens on Friday, July 2, at 11 AM.  This venue has already happened, but for a 23-minute audio podcast of NPR's Science Friday, click this link:
http://podcastdownload.npr.org/anon.npr-podcasts/podcast/510221/12827625...

For those in England, Dr. Block will be giving an illustrated public lecture at the Chemistry Centre of the Royal Society of Chemistry in London on July 15 at 18:30. While the talk is free, advance registration is required since space is limited. At this event, Dr. Block will also be signing copies of his book.  For more information or to register, click here:
http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/ChemistryCentre/Events/saladbowl.asp?CFID=446...

Also, for those in Scotland, Dr. Block has been assisting BBC-TV on a feature they are producing on onions for a program called 'Jimmy's Food Factory 2', BBC Scotland. He does not know when it will air, but believes it should be of interest to Scottish Allium-lovers.

Other news of interest to those in the UK and the EU
A new environmentally-benign garlic-based pesticide has just this week been fully approved by the UK regulators for horticultural use, such as with root crops like carrots and parsnips, as well as on turf grass in golf courses and soccer fields, etc. EU approval has also recently been received.

The product is now commercially available from a small UK company (full disclosure: Dr. Block is a scientific consultant for them) called ECOspray. The ECOspray website is currently being updated with the new information and it may be a week or more before it is up to date. Here is the link: http://www.ecospray.com/index.php

More information on Dr. Eric Block
e-mail: [email protected]
http://www.albany.edu/chemistry/eblock.shtml

I listened to yesterday's Science Friday edition of NPR that included Dr. Block's interview.  I thought the book would be a good Christmas present for me (from someone else).  $40 for the paperback.  We have a $20 max rule in our family, so maybe it will be a joint effort...

Not all flower.

In honor of our resident Alliophile expert, the first pix I've downloaded from the last few weeks of intensive travel all over Colorado and Oregon will be some Allium! You probably have seen this miniature form of Allium geyeri from Pikes Peak and Mt. Evans (the only place I have seen it). It is sometimes classified as its own species: Allium pikeanum. I think I got some good pix that you should enjoy. These were taken about two weeks ago on Mt. Goliath (a shoulder of Mt. Evans where Denver Botanic Gardens has its Alpine unit) Typical A. geyeri gets a foot or more high and its umbels can be two inches across. This is barely a third that size in all dimensions, and perhaps even shorter. Need to remember to go back and get some seed!

Nice onions!
What's the blue plant together with the alliums in the last picture?

Panayoti, when was it that I was out to Colorado for an annual NARGS (ARGS then) meeting in Boulder CO, I think it was in the mid 1980s?  At this event, one of the field trips was a bus ride up to the top of Pike's Peak, a hair raising experience to be sure. But I remember it well, excited to see dwarf (prostrate) fans of narrow foliage, that I later learned was Allium geyeri in a dwarf alpine form (syn. A. pikeanum).  It was not in flower at the time, so it's great to see your photos of flowering plants from Mt. Evans.

I did grow this in Seattle, and later in Massachusetts after moving back to New England; while it stayed smaller, growing only 6-7" tall, it was upright growing at lower elevations, and did not show any of the prostrate habit as seen up on Pike's Peak.  This form was recalcitrant and never increased, eventually dying out, whereas other forms collected in moist partly-shaded sites in my western mountain travels are easy growers, making pleasant billows of light pink urceolate flowers in late spring.  In moist sites, A. geyeri can easily reach 18" (45 cm) or more. 

Back to the Pike's Peak buses. We were told that the small fleet of Pike's Peak buses dedicated to shuttling people up and down the 14,115' (4,302 m) peak, were specially designed with the wheel bases pulled in towards the center of the bus's length, thereby making it easier to turn and navigate the many switchback turns (180 degree hairpin turns).  However, what this means, is that the front portion of the bus would actually project out and over shear vertical drops at each hairpin turn, the mostly 60s and over crowd of ARGS members screaming in terror with each and every turn, like some sort of hellish amusement park ride.  The adept bus drivers, so used to the trips up and down, would also travel at what seemed like death-defying speed given the precarious terrain and dizzying heights... I think they rather enjoyed getting riders to scream. :o :o :o

Hoy wrote:

Nice onions!
What's the blue plant together with the alliums in the last picture?

The blue plant looks like Phacelia sericea.

The blue plant is Phacelia sericea. The yellow is Geum rossii.

A few more pix of Mt. Goliath are posted at: http://www.botanicgardensblog.com/2010/07/25/quick-before-its-winter/

Thanks both, I thought of a Phacelia species.

Dear Mark!
  You bring back great memories! I remember that bus ride. I also recall that Linc and Timmy Foster were on that bus and were not thrilled with the thrills (Timmy later told me she felt as if she was on a trick plane ride)...the crowning moment came when we heard Dr. William A. Weber bellowing (at the top of his lungs) "Penis! Penis! Penis!" As it turned out, he was correcting some poor soul who made the mistake of pronouncing the prevalent low altitude pine as "Pie-nuss ponderosa".
  You realize that was 28 years ago! Gawd, we're going to be tiresome geezers.
  Bill, incidentally, is in his nineties, and still arresting.

(Nothing to do with alliums....)
Too bad I wasn't there, it might have been fun. The correct pronunciation of Pinus, for English speakers, is, of course, Pie-nuss. Botanical names are not Latin and attempts to pronounce them as such are just silly. And, in many cases, impossible.

Allium listera is one of a small handful of Chinese species with hosta-like leaves, quite remarkably so in this species.  I grow three clones, all collected by Darrell Probst in China, two of which flowered this year side-by-side.  I've grown these a number of years, and it proves to be a most unique, attractive, and hardy Allium for the semi-shady bed.  I upload 10 photos showing the progression from early leaf emergence to flowering.  Normally flowering takes place in latest July to mid August, but this year we are 2-3 weeks earlier than normal.

Early leaf emergence shows off the different clones well, my original plant is the one with ruddy reddish foliage in spring, looking rather odd with fleshy shiny leaves, but robust and more leaves than the second clone... the leaves eventually turning green but larger than the other... the second clone was green and looking altogether normal, smaller and narrower in shape.  The second clone started flowering about 2 weeks earlier than my original more robust form, but there is some cross-over in bloom time. 

This year, it has been so desperately hot and dry, that the leaves started drying off as the flowers appeared, something nor experienced before, normally the leaves are in good green hosta form as the flowers open.  The smaller form did not set any seed, it was near 99 F (37 C) when the flowers were blooming, too soon to tell if the later more robust form will set viable seed this year.

What interesting foliage on A. listera.

Mark, here, in bloom now, is the allium that you commented on previously as likely being A. nutans.  Does it still seem to be it?  The stems are flattened, and ridged.  The leaves are also flattened, about 1cm wide, and blunt at the tips.  Thank you, in advance, for an ID.

Mark, you never stop showing interesting onions! Allium listera is no exception. Both clones had very nice leaves but the robust form wins the gold medal. The flowers weren't bad either.

And your presumably A. nutans Lori, also is very fine. Here I like the dense flowerheads better!

Skulski wrote:

Mark, here, in bloom now, is the allium that you commented on previously as likely being A. nutans.  Does it still seem to be it?  The stems are flattened, and ridged.  The leaves are also flattened, about 1cm wide, and blunt at the tips.  Thank you, in advance, for an ID.

Lori, that is not only Allium nutans, but a very fine form of it, both for flowers and for the leaves.  I grow one that looks similar, which is flowering now.

I have fallen way behind posting Allium photos, but here are a few recent ones.

1    Allium nutans - robust white form, looks similar to Lori's plant

2    Allium angulosum - good white form, here it is stretching for more light, must move it to a sunnier position.

3-4  Allium plummerae - this should be a standard Allium in everyone's garden who permit alliums, a first rate "garden perennial" that clumps up well, has distinctive pale gray-green glaucous leaves held straight up, topped with flat clusters of white flowers, the ovaries changing to brown or orangish colors.  From high alpine meadows in Arizona and New Mexico, this one wants full sun, but good rich (and moist) soil, but will grow easily even in dryish loam.  Almost never reseeds.

5    Allium mixed species growing together, Allium cernuum, A. stellatum and stellatum hybrids, and Allium nutans hybrids.
6    Same as #5, except a week earlier, showing some of the bud habit.

7-8  Allium stellatum hybrid seedlings (ex. Allium stellatum x senescens 'Rosey Affair') - mixed white and pink.

9-10 Allium ericetorum (chartreuse yellow) on the left, A. saxatile (medium pink form) on the right, growing in a friend's garden.

Beautiful alliums, Mark, and thanks for the ID.
Here's Allium flavum var. tauricum out on the corner of the sidewalk... the standard yellow.

Skulski wrote:

Beautiful alliums, Mark, and thanks for the ID.
Here's Allium flavum var. tauricum out on the corner of the sidewalk... the standard yellow.

Looks to be a really good form, a good bright yellow.  At one point I used to select out and discard the yellow ones, in part, that's how I ended up with so many colors other than yellow, but now I have been purposely replanting yellow forms and A. flavum, just for the spots of bright color they add without taking up much space.

Allium sikkimense has been in bloom for some time now:

That's a pretty blue one!

Yes, it sure is!  The other blue one I have, A. cyaneum, didn't bloom very well this year.  (Oh, I guess I also have A. cyaneum... forgot about that one.)

A couple of our native species, from a moist swale between the higher, rocky ridges on Forgetmenot Ridge (again) on Aug. 23:
1) Allium schoenoprasum var. sibiricum, chives
2) Allium cernuum

Skulski wrote:

Allium sikkimense has been in bloom for some time now:

Wow, that's a SUPERB clump of Allium sikkimense!  Well grown.

Cool stuff, Lori.  It seems my Alium "sikkimense" from NARGS seed is not. The pedicels seem too long. Any guesses, Mark? Flowers never opened more than what you see.

(Edited to say that Mark's preliminary ID is Alium sikkimense.)

I finally caught some native Allium tricoccum in seed.
#2 - early spring foliage
#3 - shall we just say an artsy photo of a seedhead?  Seeds are black, not blue.

RickR wrote:

Cool stuff, Lori.  It seems my Alium "sikkimense" from NARGS seed is not. The pedicels seem too long. Any guesses, Mark? Flowers never opened more than what you see.

I finally caught some native Allium tricoccum in seed.
#2 - early spring foliage
#3 - shall we just say an artsy photo of a seedhead?  Seeds are black, not blue.

I'm guessing that you do have Allium sikkimense, it is quite variable, sometimes nodding heads, sometimes more upright as in your plant.  The flowers typically don't open widely, but I have found that the flowers can be puny, underdeveloped, and don't open as well as they should in very hot and dry weather... some of my Chinese Alliums look miserable this year, and I think I have lost A. mairei in the drought.

I'm glad you mentioned that the seeds on your artsy photo of A. tricoccum are indeed black instead of blue; I was starting to get excited there for a minute or two!

Thanks Mark.  I'll see if they perform any differently next season...

We had our August "seedling" sale recently.  I picked up Allium nutans and Allium platycaule, grown from seed.  This sale is open to members and guests (not the public) and is priced more modestly for our members, rather than our real money maker in the spring that is open to the public.  Still, a member brought several Redbud seedlings from the cold hardy strain for up in the north, and another brought some Iseli conifers left over from her tech college sale.  Both bunches fetched good prices, and we made $600!  A record for our August sale.

This sale is always at a member's home, and touring her gardens, I spied an allium with very blue chive-like, very narrow foliage.  Stupid me, I didn't check to see if leaves were hollow. Inquiring as to its identity, she said "it has a poison in its name."  Thinking of cyanide, I mentioned cyaneum, and she said "yes, I think so."  Blooms were spent, but it may not have been very long since senescence, and the umbels were compact - similar to A. shoenoprasum (but perhaps larger, in total).  Is this consistent with Allium cyaneum?

RickR wrote:

This sale is always at a member's home, and touring her gardens, I spied an allium with very blue chive-like, very narrow foliage.  Stupid me, I didn't check to see if leaves were hollow. Inquiring as to its identity, she said "it has a poison in its name."  Thinking of cyanide, I mentioned cyaneum, and she said "yes, I think so."  Blooms were spent, but it may not have been very long since senescence, and the umbels were compact - similar to A. shoenoprasum (but perhaps larger, in total).  Is this consistent with Allium cyaneum?

Doesn't sound like Allium cyaneum to me, that species has thread thin green leaves, not blue hued leaves.  However, many forms of chives, Allium schoenoprasum, do indeed have bluish hued leaves... most likely that's what it was.  I have no idea what "it has a poison in its name" could refer to, although posibly it is a misnamed item labeled as A. cyaneum as you surmised.

Some recent Alliums:

1.    Allium stellatum
2-4  Allium callimischon ssp. callimischon, from Antoine Hoog, 2001, one of the Brevispatha alliums that produce buds in an extremely narrow spathe barely differentiated from the stem, the dry looking stem popping open with fresh flowers in late summer or fall.
5-6  Allium hybrid that appeared a couple meters away from the probable parent, also a hybrid A. senescens type, shown growing in 100% crushed stone gravel in a "drip strip" under the roof eave overhang.  Short, nice full spherical flowers.
7-10  Allium 'Pink Pepper' - a dwarf type, like a miniature Allium senescens "glaucum" but with narrow swirling green leaves (not gray) and light pink hemispherical flowers on 4-6" (10-15 cm) stems in September, the flowers peppered with protruding stamens and yellow anthers.

Wow, it's been astounding to see the vast variety of garden-worthy Allium species, and to realize - even more than I already did - the extremely long bloom period one can achieve with the genus!

I repeat what Lori just said!

Yes, I used to shy away from onions, not realizing their allure.  When I first heard of you and your vast collection and knowledge, Mark, I thought: "Well, to each their own."

You're probably right about my mystery onion.  It very well could be a chive.  The flower heads, though dried when I saw them, do fit, too.  The reference to poison: "cyan" from cyanide (doh!).

I recall something about Allium stellatum seed heads that is supposed to be very different from other Allium species and is an easy identification marker.  Do you know what that might be?

RickR wrote:

I recall something about Allium stellatum seed heads that is supposed to be very different from other Allium species and is an easy identification marker.  Do you know what that might be?

Some American Allium species have crested capsules, horn-like projections at the top of the capsules, pronounced in Allium cernuum and Allium stellatum, but particularly so in Allium stellatum.  Shown are 3 views of a deep pink late flowering forms of A. stellatum, with the inflorescences starting to go over and some capsules are developing.  In these deep pink forms, the fresh seed capsules are dark reddish colored initially, as are the pedicels.  In paler color forms, there is still a dark hue to the capsules, but not nearly as dark.  You can see in the last photo, how pronounced the crests are on the capsules.  On a totally dried inflorescence where color has dissipated, I would not attempt telling cernuum and stellatum apart, would need to see other plant characteristics and fresh flowers.

This year was the hottest and driest in the last two decades, a brutal drought that provided for challenging conditions in the garden.  For the most part, the numerous rhizomatous Allium hybrids I grow still managed to put on a good show as they are quite drought tolerant, although the flowers went over quicker and looked lighter in color than in cooler years, and with more leaves senescing than normal.  I've put together some photos from previous years, in seasons more favorable to good growth and flowering.

1-2  Allium 'Sugar Melt' - one of my hybrids resulting from 'Pink Pepper', a dwarf autumn blooming plant, like a small green-leaved A. senescens glaucum, but with good pink flowers peppered with yellow anthers, the flowers on short stems.  In 'Sugar Melt', the plants grow taller, but still on the low side, at 14-16", with clear pink flowers in August.  I include a link to Plant Delights Nursery where this cultivar is available, although I must say, the image they used is rather poor; my photos give a better impression of what this one looks like.
http://www.plantdelights.com/Catalog/Plants/Genus/Allium

3-4  These photos represent a type of Allium nutans/senescens hybrids that I've been getting, what I call the pincushion types, with flowers so densely packed, and stamens well exserted, the flower balls quite literally look like pin cushions.

5  Allium garden view, with a pincushion type hybrid, Allium 'Stellar Dust' in the top center of the view.  August blooming.

6  Close-up view of Allium 'Stellar Dust'

7-9 Allium 'Meteor Shower' - one of my newer selections, has a distinctive look, with low broad hemispheres of bloom, the individual florets spaced apart from each other, each floret with a lighter tip.  August blooming.

10  Allium 'Asteroids', another recent selection, with 2' tall (or taller) stems, and largish balls of tightly packed lavender pink flowers, each floret like a small crater.  August blooming.

Thanks, Mark.  I remember now, but I had thought those crested capsules were definitive for stellatum only, but I was wrong.

Really like your selections, especially Asteroid.

More Allium stellatum photos, the second one taken on a dark and gloomy day.   I wondered if the crested capsules were crested enough, but when I looked on your web site, I satisfied myself.  If I am wrong, of course let me know.

Mark, how does one distinguish stellatum from senescens?  I have what I thought were senescens in bloom at the moment but they look a lot like stellatum you are posting.

Todd wrote:

Mark, how does one distinguish stellatum from senescens?  I have what I thought were senescens in bloom at the moment but they look a lot like stellatum you are posting.

Wow!  Todd, you pose a legitimate question, but your Allium photo has me puzzled.  I could answer this questions readily if the photo you posted was an obvious A. senescens, but it is not!  So, there are two questions... 1) how to tell stellatum from senescens (this is the easier question)... 2) what the heck is your allium?

First of all, let me say, with your flexing your photographic muscle with your new camera, it is paying off, your photos are quite excellent, and this one is no exception... love the completely black background and clarity of detail... superb photo.

1.  Distinguishing Allium senescens from stellatum:  senescens is a rhizomatous species, with basal bulbs attached to strong well-developed horizontal rhizomes close to the surface, much like an Iris... a spreading very leafy plant, whereas stellatum is usually a solitary bulb, these are sometimes attached to other bulbs by very short temporary vestigial rhizomes, but essentially this is a bulbous species with ovoid bulbs... an upright plant rather sparse of foliage.  Allium senescens has hemispherical umbels, usually quite dense, the hemisphere oriented normal to the ground, with campanulate to narrowly-campanulate florets, to almost pinched cup-shaped florets, whereas A. stellatum has a more effuse head of florets, semi-nodding in bud but can become pseudo-erect in flower (typically hemispherical opening sideways, but can develop almost spherical heads), the tepals strongly dimorphic with inner tepals strongly erect (at some portion of anthesis) and the outer tepals spreading wide open... the inner tepals can splay outwards once more mature adding to the starry effect.  Allium senescens foliage is completely different, a strong leafy plant, with linear but broad-ish strap shaped leaves, bright glossy green in ssp. montanum, and very gray in true type senescens and senescens var. glaucum, whereas the leaves of A. stellatum are few and depauperate, narrow matte-green basal leaves of hardly any impact.  Many other differences too.  Also, seed capsules on senescens are smooth, they are strongly horned in A. stellatum, per the photos shown by me and Rick.

2.  Your plant is a total puzzle.  Need to see more of the plant, the leaves, stems, the roots and bulbs if possible, and it's general disposition.  Do you know where it is from, or under what name it came?  The totally spherical flower head, and very open flowers (not campanulate) tells me we are definitely dealing with something other than Allium senescens, thus the conundrum answering your question.

So, the question is, what Allium are you growing.  As much information and photos you can post here, of the various plant characteristics, will help ascertain an ID diagnosis.  Also, if you know the provenance of the plant, that certainly cuts down a huge amount of possibilities.

RickR wrote:

Thanks, Mark.  I remember now, but I had thought those crested capsules were definitive for stellatum only, but I was wrong.

Really like your selections, especially Asteroid.

More Allium stellatum photos, the second one taken on a dark and gloomy day.   I wondered if the crested capsules were crested enough, but when I looked on your web site, I satisfied myself.  If I am wrong, of course let me know.

Rick, nice stellatum selections, they look much like my taller light pink forms.  There are also some very deep pink forms, and some rather dwarf forms... that's what I like about these, they're so variable.

I love a mystery...

The really nice thing, technically speaking, about solid backgrounds is that it allows greater compression of the image file, while still keeping the detail of the subject.  Similarly, a blurred background will allow more preservation of detail of the subject than a photo with an in focus background.

OK, it seems most of my senescens are the real thing...they have the rhizomatous habit you describe.  Also, most have finished blooming (actually have shed their seeds) except Blue Eddie which is just starting (why is this one do darn late?).  I will have to go back and look for my sources for the current blooming onion.  I will also have a look at the bulb scenario.  I will endeavor to get a whole plant shot if the wind ever dies down!  I know this one did not come from NARGS (a convenient scapegoat for mislabeled seed).

Well I could not discover the source of my recent allium but here is the plant...it has the habit of a senescens.

In bloom today, a recently received replacement to an Allium I once grew but lost, Allium thunbergii DJH 272 (Dan Hinkley).  It is 6-8" (15-20 cm) in bloom.

At least 1 month early this year, is an allium received as A. taquetii that I received from the US National Arboretum many years ago; the name taquetii is a synonym for A. thunbergii.  Certainly the flowers are just like A. thunbergii, deep rose-purple with long exserted stamens, and flowering very late in the season.  However, instead of having the usual fistulose (hollow) keeled leaves, here the leaves are absolutely flat and not hollow. Usually this one blooms extremely late, the end of October into December, but this year it is flowering much earlier, even before A. thunbergii 'Ozawa'!

Allium thunbergii white form blooming now

Peachey wrote:

Allium thunbergii white form blooming now

Very nice Harold, that's one of the finest clumps of white thunbergii I've seen. It also has those older leaves that age an orange color as seen on the purple 'Ozawa' selection.  What is the source of your plant, it seems more compact than normal.

Mark-bought this plant at a nursery in Ithaca, NY a couple of years ago at an end of season sale along with a few alpines that seemed out of place at this particular nursery, has not made seed in the past, hoping for some this year, but as it is late in the season I am not overly optimistic, but if successful, will send you some.

A view of my Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa' planting, and a lone never-increasing white form of A. thunbergii, taken today on this unseasonably warm day.  The temperature at 74 F, the Allium planting was covered with an impossible number of bees; I tried making a video to show, and to capture the the droning buzz of frenzied bees, on what might be their last stand for the year.  Note:  photo taken in morning before it warmed up and before the masses of bees arrived.

Allium 'Summer Drummer'

Guess this new cv may not qualify as rock garden, as it's reported to reach 6 feet.  Bought it fall of 2009.  Came up spring 2010 and grew about 14 inches and disappeared.  Quite surprised to find it now at 16 to 18 inches and growing strong -- with winter lows expected at -5 to 5F.

Clearly this new variety is not suitable in USDA zone 6, but rather should be classsed as a zone 7 or 8 -- to be determined.
Charles Swanson NE Massachusetts USA

Lots of vendors suggest zone 4 as the low end for 'Summer Drummer', and such zone ratings are usually very conservative (giving the general impression that it must be an nonvegetated wasteland north of zone 6  ;) ), rather than the other way around.  
Having said that, I'm not familiar with that particular cultivar among the big alliums.  Is it a hybrid of some particularly tender species?

Charles, I read your message a couple times and just didn't notice that you appended to the name of the message subject to indicate the Allium cultivar name of 'Summer Drummer', normally that remains to match the topic.  So that it doesn't trick others as it did me, I added the name of the cultivar to the body of your message  :)

I can't find out much about this, other than it is Dutch origin and was introduced in 2006.  One thing I find very frustrating about the Dutch bulb trade, they'll name plants without any indication of the underlying species, which would be helpful to know how to cultivate the selection.  It is unclear whether 'Summer Drummer' is a hybrid, or just a selection of a species.  The one thing I do know, the name Summer Drummer is clever and will probably sell lots of bulbs.

My guess is the species represented in 'Summer Drummer', whether a pure species or a part of a hybrid situation, looks like either Allium ampeloprasum, A. porrum (the Leek; A. porrum is only known in cultivation, probably a centuries old derivation from Allium ampeloprasum, often listed as Allium ampeloprasum var. porrum), or less likely A. commutatum (closely related to A. ampeloprasum).  Allium ampeloprasum and porrum have stems that can reach 200 cm and 180 cm respectively (6'+ or up to 6' respectively), but the flower heads are listed as 8-9 cm in A. ampeloprasum, to 20 cm in A. porrum, the larger size flower heads of A. porrum more closely matching the stated size of 'Summer Drummer'.

Here's a link to an Italian site that shows Allium porrum:
http://luirig.altervista.org/schedeeu/ae/allium_porrum.htm

Compare the A. porrum photo in the link above, to any of the 3 photo links below, I think we have a match.  Notice the cute marketing on the 3rd image link.  Also notice the flower head size relative to a person's hand, looks like the heads are smaller than reported, maybe 5" (12.5 cm) across.
http://suttons.hostserver1.co.uk/im/pd/BUALL22613_3.jpg
http://gardenimport.com/spblvl3.php?lvl=Allium&nm=SUMMER_DRUMMER&ref=AL1670
http://img.visionspictures.sodatech.com/VISI/wprev/visi70351.jpg

Aha!  Found a picture showing the bud spathe, this is a clincher because the bud spathe on the three species I mention look like little pointed caps, and they slide off sideways as if hinged on the side of the inflorescence.  Don't you love a good mystery!
http://www.meeuwissenvoorhout.nl/shop/artikel.asp?aid=205 <---link overwritten and no longer pointing to the right photo :-(

Charles, what is the foliage like, do you have a picture?  The web descriptions say the foliage is corn like, which sounds like the broad, clasping leaves of A. ampeloprasum/porrum.

Hi Mark and all,
Sorry about the confusion.  Right now A. Summer Drummer looks very much like Hemerocallis; but ascending a bit, like corn.  Will try to get a photo next AM. (Will also try to dig before a hard frost)
Charles Swanson Masachusetts

externmed wrote:

Hi Mark and all,
Sorry about the confusion.  Right now A. Summer Drummer looks very much like Hemerocallis; but ascending a bit, like corn.  Will try to get a photo next AM. (Will also try to dig before a hard frost)
Charles Swanson Masachusetts

From what I read, Allium porrum and A. ampeloprasum should be hardy perennials, and like many perenniating alliums they can have persistent fall/winter foliage.  I have no first hand experience with either species, so use your best judgement on how to overwinter... it might be worth leaving one bulb out over winter to see how it fairs.  Looking forward to seeing a photo of the growth... thanks Charles.

I did receive bulbils (very small) from a friend of A. ampeloprasum var. babingtonii, which is a bulbilliferous version of ampeloprasum, which I planted out... we'll see what happens.

Hey Allium fans, I received an announcement today from Dr. Reinhard Fritsch that "some data and images of definitively determined accessions of our IPK Taxonomic Allium reference collection are now available via IPK Homepage (Institute of Plant Genetics in Gatersleben, Germany).  Keep this first link handy, because if you choose to look at any other database link, you can't get back to this home page. :-\
http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/Internet/Infrastruktur/Datenbanken/Genetis...

I've been checking it out, and there is excellent information and photos available, showing many species that are otherwise difficult or impossible to find photos of.  The typus information, indicating where each accession was made, is also most useful.  There is much that can be accessed here, although some of the web linking and functionality can be tricky to figure out, but let me highlight the most useful items I've found so far.

Taxonomic Allium Reference Collection - currently 3784 records of Allium accessions, many with photographs.  Some steps on how best to use the resource:

a.  Go to: http://pgrc-35.ipk-gatersleben.de/pls/htmldb_pgrc/f?p=265:1:267669476324...
b.  Click on "Search allium data" at the top of the page, a huge list will appear.

1.  Since the list is not sorted alphabetically, use the drop-down list labeled - Select scientific name -  (photo 1)

2.  I selected Allium akaka, a list of 4 accessions shows.  Click on the left-hand document icon to display the first record.  (photo 2)

3.  The first record is displayed, if there are photos, thumbnail images show in the record. Use the left and right arrows in the record
    to cycle through the records, finding photos you want to look at.  (photo 3)

4.  Cycling through the records, it is interesting to see from the thumbnails the variations in the species.  (photo 4)

5.  From the drop-down list I moved on to Allium eriocoleum, a beautiful (and rare) yellow-flowered species.  (photo 5)

6.  Click on a thumbnail for an enlarged view, here showing Allium eriocoleum.  (photo 6)

There is also a List of Allium images from the Allium Database (this is separate from the photos available through the Taxonomic Allium Ref Collection)
http://mansfeld.ipk-gatersleben.de/pls/htmldb_pgrc/f?p=185:83:4399216669...

Have fun :D

Hello onion mavens, here is an intriguing little onion photographed by Panayoti Kelaidis on is 2009 expedition to Mongolia, sadly this one was not among the collections made.  I'm parsing through the 1995 publication in Feddes Repertorium 106 (1995) 1-2, pp 59-81, The Genus Allium L. in the Flora of Mongolia by Nicolai Friesen, to see if I can match up an ID.  Since this short publication is basically an enumeration of species and their distribution, I'll have to resort to species descriptions elsewhere, such as Flora of the USSR, and possibly Flora of China, depending on where in Mongolia the photo was taken.  A really cute onion, whatever it is.

Here are a series of links showing 4 species (all related) that were under consideration for Panayoti's Mongolian Allium ID.  At first I thought it was A. mongolicum, but I'm quite certain it is A. vodopjanovae, a species described by Nikolai Friesen in 1995 splitting off this few-flowered form with semi-nutant flowers from A. mongolicum.  Do check out the Allium mongolicum links, why isn't this species in cultivation... it is the most common onion found growing over most of Mongolia, and really adorable in every way.

Allium bellulum
http://www.bioaltai-sayan.ru/regnum/pict-p/photo/Allium_bellulum_fot.jpg
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/69601.html

Allium mongolicum
species desc: http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/?flora_search=Taxon&taxon_id=15
photo record: http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/?flora_search=Image&record_id=...
large image:  http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/floragreif-content/Kr03/25-08-...
large image2: http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/floragreif-content/Kr03/17-08-...
roots & bulb coats: http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/?flora_search=Image&record_id=...
http://www.bioaltai-sayan.ru/regnum/pict-p/photo/Allium_mongolicum_fot.jpg
http://www.bjkp.gov.cn/bjkpzc/tszr/zwdg/lsmy/211454.shtml

Allium vodopjanovae
http://www.bioaltai-sayan.ru/regnum/pict-p/photo/Allium_vodopjanovae_fot...

Allium vodopjanovae - zoomable herbarium specimen identified by N. Friesen 2008
http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/wp-content/uploads/scan_B12-09...

Allium tenuissimum
http://houmingfei.blogspot.com/2009/04/5_01.html

Update:  I have heard back from Dr. Nicolai Friesen, an expert in the genus Allium in such regions as Siberia and Mongolia, and he confirmed my ID of Panayoti's dwarf pink-flowered Mongolian Allium as A. vodopjanovae.

Here is another allium species photographed in Mongolia by Panayoti Kelaidis in 2009.

This allium is surely A. amblyophyllum (platyspathum ssp. amblyophyllum), a species very close to A. carolinianum (among its synonyms are varieties of A. platyspathum, such as A. platyspathum Schrenk var. falcatum Regel), and also close to A. hymenorrhizum.

Allium carolinianum is not recorded for Mongolia, although A. hymenorrhizum is.

Allium amblyophyllum
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/27709.html
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/17930.html
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/24368.html
...photo showing whole plant, and tapered leaf petioles
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/3178.html

Update:  I have heard back from Dr. Nicolai Friesen, an expert in the genus Allium in such regions as Siberia and Mongolia, and he has identified Panayoti's Mongolian Allium as A. platyspathum.

A cross between chives and leek! I like it.

I often sow Allium seed in late fall or early winter, but I was surprised to see very quick germination on two species, A. obliquum and A. pseudoflavum.  I didn't expect germination this early, nor do I want germination now, as surely many or most of the seedlings will not persist once the real winter temperatures arrive.  I don't have a greenhouse nor coldframe, so I'm debating whether to bring these two flats to my basement windowsill for the winter.  Thanks to the NARGS & SRGC forumists who shared this seed with me.

Mark, is it not possible to keep the trays outside and cover with dry leaves or another insulation material and a sheet of plastic?

Hoy wrote:

Mark, is it not possible to keep the trays outside and cover with dry leaves or another insulation material and a sheet of plastic?

Sure, if I decide to leave them out, I would certainly do something to protect them, but given that they germinated just very recently, the seedlings will not have had time to develop any true bulbs, and seedlings will be subject to out right winter kill.  One can sow seed of species like A. flavum and other Codonoprasum section alliums when the seed ripens in July, and they germinate quickly in summer but seedlings will still have at least 3 months to develop and get settled in, then overwinter fine.  From previous experience, I find that late-showing seedlings like these have a very low chance of surviving the full brunt of winter, even with some protection.  I should've sown the seed later in the season  :-\

Bummer.  I had the same thing happen to me with Allium wallichii last season.  But being single, I can use my house (and my refrigerator) any way I like.  I grew them inside, along with Corydalis wilsonii and Delosperma bosseranum.

I brought my Ranunculus gramineus seeded pot inside before fall temps arrived for exactly that reason, too.  Last season, they germinated in the fall, just as they are supposed to (I discovered), but it was too late to survive the winter, and they didn't make it.  This time, I will start wtheir cool down in February.

RickR wrote:

I brought my Ranunculus gramineus seeded pot inside before fall temps arrived for exactly that reason, too.  Last season, they germinated in the fall, just as they are supposed to (I discovered), but it was too late to survive the winter, and they didn't make it.  This time, I will start wtheir cool down in February.

So Rick, did the Ranunculus gramineus fail because you waited too long with the seedlings outdoors, exposed to too much freezing; or because once indoors the warmer temps were not to their liking?  Tonight, I brought my flats of seedlings of both Alliums inside, as it is supposed to go down to 20 F tonight.  I made room for them on my single basement window (I have two basement windows, but only one of them is "mine"  ;)) The problem is, this is a heated space... it's my fully finished basement office that my wife and I share, so the warm temps can be a problem for overwintering plants and seedlings.

McDonough wrote:

So Rick, did the Ranunculus gramineus fail because you waited too long with the seedlings outdoors, exposed to too much freezing; or because once indoors the warmer temps were not to their liking?  

I waited to long with the seedlings outdoors...

A thought...if it is amenable with your wife, you could box in the window, taking advantage of the cold that seeps through the window, and making it a "cold greenhouse."

RickR wrote:

A thought...if it is amenable with your wife, you could box in the window, taking advantage of the cold that seeps through the window, and making it a "cold greenhouse."

Good one Rick ;D  Not even going to "go there"; some battles are worth fighting for, others aren't.

Update:  I have heard back from Dr. Nicolai Friesen, an expert in the genus Allium in such regions as Siberia and Mongolia, and he has identified Panayoti's Mongolian Allium as A. platyspathum... I was close, but very happy to have Dr. Friesen's expert ID.
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=177.msg5043#msg5043

Dr. Friesen has confirmed as correct my ID of A. vodopjanovae on Panayoti's small pink-flowered Mongolian allium
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=177.msg4963#msg4963

Allium Summer Drummer
Made it through the Z6a winter at 14 inches high, with 20% die-back on some leaves.  Deep fairly constant snow this winter.  (had been dormant going into its first winter)
Now continuing to ascend it's leafy stalk.
Will photograph when it has finished growing.
Charles Swanson
Z6a Massachusetts USA

externmed wrote:

Allium Summer Drummer
Made it through the Z6a winter at 14 inches high, with 20% die-back on some leaves.  Deep fairly constant snow this winter.  (had been dormant going into its first winter)
Now continuing to ascend it's leafy stalk.
Will photograph when it has finished growing.
Charles Swanson
Z6a Massachusetts USA

Thanks for the update Charles, can't wait to see what this thing looks like.  We can finish out this 'Summer Drummer' mystery here in the Allium 2010 topic, and new Allium additions should go into the Allium 2011 topic.  :D

Allium "Summer Drummer" was a total waste.  Made it to 5.5 ft, looking like a pathetic corn plant, flower cluster smaller and less attractive than the readily available globe hybrids-but flowering in July.  Might have some limited value in some climates for cut flowers.  Mine is going to compost pile.

externmed wrote:

Allium "Summer Drummer" was a total waste.  Made it to 5.5 ft, looking like a pathetic corn plant, flower cluster smaller and less attractive than the readily available globe hybrids-but flowering in July.  Might have some limited value in some climates for cut flowers.  Mine is going to compost pile.

Thanks for the feedback Charles.  The hybridizer/namer for a number of Alliums (including Summer Drummer) grown in the Netherlands has posted on SRGC about this Allium... it is basically a selected form of Allium ampeloprasum.

Links pertinent to Allium 'Summer Drummer'
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6685.msg203513#msg203513
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6685.msg204932#msg204932
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6685.msg204985#msg204985
...Allium 'Summer Drummer' is a selected seedling of allium ampeloprasum:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6685.msg204999#msg204999

Allium 'Summer Drummer' in late July:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6685.msg209426#msg209426

Mark, I've been drooling over the alliums in part 2 of your article in the Quarterly.  Naturally, they're the ones not so readily available, right?

Lis wrote:

Hmmmm, Allium experts: what would this one be? It's probably something common as I got the seed from one of the exchanges. It was called Allium cernuum album, but it sure ain't that. About 18" high, blooming now.

Lis, that is Allium carinatum ssp. pulchellum.  In your last photo, I see the white ones, a lavender color one just peeking from behind a white one, and a darker purplish one... one of my favorite alliums, a good doer, loves the sun and doesn't mind heat and a degree of drought.  An excellent species for the mid summer garden.  As alliums go, for me it doesn't seed around so easily as A. flavum, to which it is related and has the same general look except for flower color and somewhat earlier bloom in July.

Spiegel wrote:

Mark, I've been drooling over the alliums in part 2 of your article in the Quarterly.  Naturally, they're the ones not so readily available, right?

Thanks Anne.  Yes indeed, the whole point of part 2 was to feature some of those rare types that we can dream about, in compliment to Part 1 that covered more accessible species.