Allium 2011

In Norway the counterpart is A ursinum called "ramsløk" (løk is equivalent to leek). "Ram" actually means strong smell as of a ram ;D

The plant is much used as a culinary herb (among certain people ;)

I've grown many alliums over the year but for some reason, despite many attempts, I cannot get the rampions (generic) to germinate.  I am trying both species again this year.  Both are still in strat.

The birchbark makes a nice background to the photo, Mark!

Ditto on the birch bark.

I put the native Allium tricoccum seed I collected last year directly between moist paper towels at room temperature until mid-September.  I think it was Deno, or perhaps someone else, that said the odd seed might germinate without a cold treatment.  But there was no germination, and they still looked as healthy as can be.  They have been in the fridge since then, and as of 2 days ago, they remain the status quo.  I am very optimistic.  

Skulski wrote:

The birchbark makes a nice background to the photo, Mark!

I should have made it more clear that the photo of variegated Allium tricoccum is by Darrell Probst, not me, and it is indeed a clever on-the-fly way to get a good backdrop when photographing in the field.  

Rick, I've only tried growing Allium tricoccum from seed a couple of times, and failed each time.  I used to have one bulb that would flower every year, never increased in a decade or more, probably too dry where it is, and now I'm not sure if it is still there, the wild woody area where it is growing remains an absolute mess of fallen splintered tree limbs from the ice storm of December 2008 and I've not bothered to tidy up that wild part of the yard yet, a formidable amount of work.

The best Allium tricoccum I have found in the wild (and I haven't observed that many - 25?) have always been on an east facing gentle slope, and the best of those on the east side of fallen maple trunks that are just up hill (to the west) that give it extra protection from late day heat. 

And ditto for [i]Decentra canadensis[i].

As relatively new viewer, I am very interested in the Allium discussions. I have planted seed of several Alliums from the NARGS seed exchange and many are now emerging in my area. One species I can not find much info on is Allium vavillovii. I would greatly appreciate an cultural or links where I can find more about this intrigueing species.
Len Lehman
PS Our local Alleghany chapter of NARGs will be hosting the Eastern Study weekend in Oct. 12-14th, 2012 near Pittsburgh. Matt Mattus is scheduled to give a talk on Fall Blooming bulbs. Hope you all would consider coming as we will be at peak fall foliage color and have several great field trips planned for the event.

Hello Len,  welcome to the NARGS Forum, thanks for making the onion pages your first stop ;)  It is early for alliums, looking forward to the spring season advancing to start seeing some onion greenery.  The information on the Eastern Study weekend in Oct. 12-14th, 2012 near Pittsburgh sounds good, I'd like to make it to that one.  I hope to make it out to a Berkshire Chapter NARGS meeting this weekend (April 2nd), where our local Massachusetts native Matt Mattus is speaking.

Regarding Allium vavilovii, this is the species thought to be the ancient wild ancestor of the vegetable onion, or Allium cepa.  Onions (A. cepa) have been cultivated for thousands of years, and as such, is not known from the wild, but is thought to have derived from early introduction of closely allied species centuries ago, namely A. vavilovii from Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan, or possibly A. oschaninii (from the same geographical area).  It is indeed hard to find much information on these, at least in the ornamental horticultural realm, because they are mostly studied in scientific terms as an agricultural crop.  Appearance-wise, it will look very similar to regular onions or A. cepa, having hollow inflated leaves, and dense ball-like heads of whitish flowers.  Personally I have not grown this species, although have tried a few ornamental sorts that are closely allied, such as A. pskemense, which is indeed weirdly ornamental and a cool plant.

An excellent resource for alliums is the Taxonomic Allium Reference Collection, hosted at the Institute of Plant Genetics in Gatersleben, Germany. See the link below, from the Allium 2010 topic, with some tips on how to use and navigate this database.
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=177.msg4950#msg4950

Allium vavilovii, in the Taxonomic Allium Reference Collection, has 4 records... the last record has two images of A. vavilovii.
(tip:  click on the little paper icon on the left of a record, then use right or left arrow keys to move through the records... if a record has thumbnail images, click on them to enlarge the image)
http://pgrc-35.ipk-gatersleben.de/pls/htmldb_pgrc/f?p=265:3:248087226952...

Abstract on a recent paper on A. vavilovii and a new Iranian species, A. asarense:
Full paper is $34, rather annoying, considering most of what is on the web is free.  If you're interested in that paper, I can ask the author (Dr. Reinhard Fritsch) if he can share a copy.  
"Allium vavilovii M. Popov et Vved. and a new Iranian species are the closest among the known relatives of the common onion A. cepa L. (Alliaceae)"
http://www.springerlink.com/content/p8m2p755t361417p/

photo of a blooming plant in a garden setting:
http://www.alltomtradgard.se/_internal/cimg!0/69bu796aq6gm68xjw7jw9napkv8x4zp
...inflated leaves:
http://www.alltomtradgard.se/_internal/cimg!0/4gnvk2q1hxv1ho7hskwajmpwn8srk6d

Wow, I am very surprised how close the species looks to our present vegetable onion.  I think I would get a lot of funny looks from visiting gardeners if I grew that.  On the other hand, they would be just as surprised as me!

Hi Len.  Glad you stopped in!  There's always good, informative allium talk here with the Onion Man (Mark).

Hoy wrote:

The plant is much used as a culinary herb (among certain people ;)

My first post, having lurked in the undergrowth for some time!

Hello Hoy! I believe I'm one of those "certain people" and proud of it! :)

Mark: You knew how to entice me out of the bushes, didn't you - posting some pictures of some tasty smelly variegated onions - my favourite subject!

Re- Allium tricoccum germination - my experience that it typically takes 2 years before they start popping up, so patience is important! Haven't had a lot of success with them over here in Norway. Most have simply disappeared (only one has survived for several years but doesn't get any bigger). I planted another batch last year, so I haven't given up yet.  I wonder if our summers are too cool and wet (but I note Mark’s comment of dryness also being a problem – narrow ecological requirements it seems? – this is a species that has a summer rest. Haven’t seen it elsewhere in Europe apart from in Kew Gardens, which makes me suspect it is difficult.  It’s also not listed by the comprehensive RHS Plant Finder (http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder).  I rembering reading some time ago. As I’ve understood it ramsons (ursinum) and ramps (tricoccum) are only distant relatives Allium-wise, despite the resemblance. I’ve only once tried to germinate ursinum – I received a Russian “cultivated” form (from the Caucasus), but it didn’t germinate. I live near the world’s most northern ursinum site – a place called “Ramslia”!

Re- Allium vavilovii: I had seed of this early 2000s and I decided that the plant that materialized was nothing more than fistulosum and removed it (perhaps I was wrong!). Received more seed (from Sweden) in 2007, but those plants died in a very cold winter. Planted a new one from the same batch last year, so I hope I’ll have a chance to study it more closely next summer.

P.S: My avatar is a salad with Allium ursinum flowers  (Yes, I agree – an improvement on my SRGC avatar). 

A hearty welcome to the NARGS Forum Stephen; I was hoping you'd find you way over here to our little onion patch. ;D

Regarding ramps (A. tricoccum), I don't think I'm trying hard enough, just allowing a single bulb to languish unattended for a decade under the bone dry shade of sugar maple trees; not a fair assessment of its fitness for the garden.  The species is native here in Massachusetts and nearly the entire eastern half of North America, so surely it can't be that hard to grow, more a matter of finding the right sort of spot for it; probably needing humus-rich soil, reasonable spring moisture, and a summer rest.  Good to know seed might require 2 years to germinate, I may have given up on ungerminated seed pots too soon.

On A. vavilovii, the paucity of verifiable images of this species is testament to the fact the true species is rare in ornamental horticulture, usually replaced by one of the more common onions in Section Cepa, such as A. fistulosum, or A. cepa itself.

Stephen, after my 40+ years of cultivating N. American alliums like A. cernuum and A. stellatum, you have inspired me to actually try eating some this year; my wife is doing up some good stir-fry these days, and I imagine the blood red bulb-coat forms of A. cernuum would be visually pleasing and tasty too.

Thanks for the welcome, Mark.

Good to hear that you're now using as well as knowing your onions! I've always thought that The Onion Man need never go hungry (even if times get really bad)! What inspired me to try Allium cernuum years ago was getting a copy of Sturtevant’s Edible Plants of the World (in Seattle)  and reading that Allium cernuum and A. canadense had formed almost the entire source of food to the French Missionary (Jacques) Marquette and his party from Green Bay to the present site of Chicago in 1674! Fittingly, there’s a park in Chicago called Marquette Park (named after Pere Marquette) and a remnant of the original prairie on which Chicago was built and thrives there thanks to volunteers, with Allium cernuum one of the original plants…..Of course, Chicago simply means onion, so if you fancy a change you could just call yourself The Chicago Man!  Link to the Sturtevant text: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/sturtevant/allium.html

Hello, Stephen!  That's a very colorful and scrumptious looking salad.  I wonder if you are the first to have food as an avatar...
Care to elaborate on its ingredients?   Do I see daylily flowers?

I have eaten Allium stellatum (bulbs), the more common native onion species here in Minnesota.  The species (and A. cernuum) were eaten by all the Native American tribes that lived here.  I wonder if there is a difference, tastily speaking, between stellatum and cernuum.  Have you tried them both, Stephen?

About ramps (Allium tricoccum), "fresh seed have an underdeveloped embryo that must develop before the cold period.Late summer/early fall planting should be enough."
Cultivation of ramps-Jackie Greenfield&Jeanine Davis, NCSU
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-133.html

The origin of the name "Chicago" is Native American, and is thought to refer to A. tricoccum, the "smelly onion" that was abundant there.

The few wild ramps that reside close to me are in maple/oak forest, and in areas that definitely go dry in summer.  In fact, they sit up on a hill adjacent to a small lake, not down near the bottom where it is more moist all season.

Hello Rick!

The salad (you did ask!): one of my less diverse efforts with a mere 77 varieties (and 61 species). The flowers were: 
Alliaria petiolata
Allium cernuum “Pink Giant”
Allium schoenoprasum “Pink Flowered"
Allium schoenoprasum “Wallington White”
Allium schoenoprasum ssp. sibiricum
Allium ursinum
Campanula latifolia
Cardamine pratensis
Crambe maritima
Hemerocallis lilioasphodelus
Hemerocallis middendorfii
Myrrhis odorata
Osmorhiza claytonii
Osmorhiza longistylis
Rubus x (R.a arcticus x stellatus);
Taraxacum officinale "Pissenlit Coeur Plein Ameliore"
Viola x wittrockiana "Black Princess"
Wasabi japonica; Wasabi
(You can see cooked ostrich fern too)

Stellatum: I’ve grown an imposter for many years. Hopefully I will have the real thing this year, thanks to Mark (I think)....

Tricoccum: That makes sense as I have usually been sent seed mid-winter, so wouldn’t germinate until the second year.

Chicago: I’d heard of various candidate species: cernuum, canadense and tricoccum. However, this article seems to suggest we’re both wrong (can’t see the end of the article thought): http://www.jstor.org/pss/40192527Haven’t time to check more.... Anyone know what current thinking is?

Skulski wrote:

The birchbark makes a nice background to the photo, Mark!

Don't you have a word for birchbark? In Norwegian it is called "never"  ;D and was used for many things, roofs, cups, boxes etc.

Stephen it is not you first but second post! And I knew you eat such green stuff ;D I do it myself; every year I get a present from a lady I know and that is Allium ursinum butter!

Stephenb wrote:

The salad (you did ask!): one of my less diverse efforts with a mere 77 varieties (and 61 species).

An epicurean's delight!

And not boring at all!
(I wonder if Wim's R. ficaria 'Salad Bowl' - wait, just read your other post: not the flowers!)

Hoy wrote:

Skulski wrote:

The birchbark makes a nice background to the photo, Mark!

Don't you have a word for birchbark? In Norwegian it is called "never"  ;D and was used for many things, roofs, cups, boxes etc.

...don't forget it was used for bread (the inner bark at least)  :)

The allium season has started with a few species from the acanthoprason section:
Allium breviscapum
Allium haemanthoides

Mark, you know I have now and then an allium species without ID.
What do you think of this one ?

Another one is the Iranian Allium elburzense. These are seed-raised why a little variation in colour is possible.

Allium noeanum, another Iranian species.

Luc, all those onions are fantastic, pure alliaceous delight! :o :o :o 

I'm always amazed by how many desirable Central Asian species there are, but so darned few in general cultivation.  I wonder why that is?  Do these make viable seed for you?  Your first photo of the potful of A. elburzense shows more than just a little variation, a most educational look at just how variable plants can be from a seed lot... I like em all.  Before you followed with photos of A. elburzense, I was going to suggest that your unknown Allium from Ahar-Tabriz (Iran) looks like A. elburzense, in fact, I still think so.

The long narrow-tepaled A. breviscapum and wide-headed A. noeanum are also rock garden gems, thanks for potraying these beauties with such fine photos.

I sowed a bunch of Allium seed last year and the year before, directly out in the garden in marked locations, of various Pilous seed and some K.Vickery seed. Checking them this past weekend, most show germination and a few showing small 2nd year leaves.  Also in summer of 2010, I received seed of dozens of Allium species from Kazakhstan; many are showing strong germination this past weekend as well.  I plan on showing photos in 5-6 years ;D

A miscellany of Alliums come to mind as the season starts up.

Allium victorialis is surging into growth.  I grow three forms, an unnamed type, and two cultivars, A. victorialis 'Cantabria' (upright growing but more slender and smaller growing than the next) and A. victorialis 'Kemerovo' with is a large-growing upright form with beautiful fresh pleated leaves in spring.

A. victorialis 'Cantabria' left, 'Kemerovo' on the right.

A. victorialis - closeup views showing the burlap-like reticulated bulb coats; the bulbs sitting at and above the soil level.

A. victorialis 'Kemerovo' - lush foliage emergence

Allium nutans - variegated.  I received seedlings from Jim Jones in my hometown of Lexington Massachusetts, of a variegated form of Allium nutans.  The seedlings varied from all green, to those showing some variegation, to one that was strongly white-leaved with green stripes.  The latter eventually died, but here's a view of a strong growing one that shows some good variegation.  The flowers are pale lilac and not so good, a work in progress.

Allium schoenoprasum 'Curly Mauve' is one of my selections; I really like the strongly prostrate curling spring growth.  On the right you can see a seedling plant that is larger in growth... tending towards the same prostrate foliage emergence.

Allium species received as A. altissimum from Arnis Seisums, E Kopet-Dag, Turkmenistan, the giant of the genus growing to 5-1/2' tall.  Dr. Reinhard Fritsch believes it is actually A. stipitatum.  Either way, it is a highly ornamental tall allium that is a good doer in the garden, the photo showing that the bulbs split and increase; I really should dig it up and separate the bulbs this summer.  I like the look of the emerging shoots.

Just like to say that that I really enjoyed your NARGS article, Mark ....bedtime reading the last few nights! Particularly like Green Eyes and Wall of Pink....just wish they were available over here... Same applies to Curly Mauve (above). Victorialis is also a favourite and I'll post something about that one soon myself. If you ever get seed off that variegated nutans, would love to try it... :)  

Here's one of my spring favourites, Asian Allium carolinianum photographed a couple of days ago:

Mark
How many species of allium do you grow? The list seems endless.
I'll have to think twice, before asking how many varieties and hybrids there are.

McDonough wrote:

A. victorialis 'Cantabria' left, 'Kemerovo' on the right.
[attachthumb=1]

Are your Cantabria and Kemerovo reversed? The picture further down should be Kemerovo if it's right?

Thought I'd show you my Victory Onions as they are today. I have about 10 different accessions, but most are still small. Here's a picture of each of the ones that are a decent size:

1) Received as var platyphyllum (from Japan) - very early and much further advanced than the other two.
2) Allium ochotense (synonym) also from Asia
3) Allium victorialis (Norwegian naturalised population from the Lofoten Islands)

I've notice also that an accession from Kola (NW Arctic Russia) is also way ahead of the others.

Two more alliums from Iran:
Allium colchicifolium
Allium materculae ssp. materculae var. albiflorum

Love the Iranian Alliums Luc - they seem a distinctive bunch. Allium breviscapum is such a looker! I'm just getting into Alliums after editing Mark's first (and upcoming second article for the Quarterly). So my main choice from the seed exchange had some alliums and now the ones from the surplus seed ex as well. Have to go and see what is happening - been away at the International Rock Garden Conference and then had a visitor so only just getting straight.

Stephenb wrote:

Just like to say that that I really enjoyed your NARGS article, Mark ....bedtime reading the last few nights! Particularly like Green Eyes and Wall of Pink....just wish they were available over here... Same applies to Curly Mauve (above). Victorialis is also a favourite and I'll post something about that one soon myself. If you ever get seed off that variegated nutans, would love to try it... :)  

Here's one of my spring favourites, Asian Allium carolinianum photographed a couple of days ago:

Catching up here :-\

Thanks for your comments Stephen.  I need to get Green Eyes, Wall of Pink, and a few others into the hands of nurserymen, to start making these available.  Love the look of emerging shoots of A. carolinianum, nice picture, and an excellent clump of this beautiful species.  I used to grow about 5-6 forms of this; I'm down to one form that persists and flowers about 1 out of every 3 years, and it never increases.  Among some of the forms that I lost, where much easier and better growers, although that didn't help them when I allowed my garden to go wild with weeds for too many years when my two daughters were young and lack of time got the better of me. 

Seed of Curly Mauve will yield plants that are variably curly, most not as prostrate as the original, but some interesting curly-whirly plants should result... I'll be sure to collect seed this year.

I have a particularly robust form of Allium hymenorrhizum (closely allied to A. carolinianum) that has similar thick ruddy red shoots in spring.  Here are two views of emerging shoots from some years back, the plant is still with me and a good grower, although it makes very little seed, none in some years.

Allium hymenorrhizum robust form, at latter leaf growth, showing mildly falcate leaves, which is somewhet unusual for the species:

And a view of the emerging shoots on my Allium carolinianum back in 2001.  In the 10 years since, it has not increased, and is still just two shoots :rolleyes:  In 2009, it was one of the rare years where it condescended to flower.  I have seen photos of spectacular forms of this species, my plant is not among them.

Weiser wrote:

Mark
How many species of allium do you grow? The list seems endless.
I'll have to think twice, before asking how many varieties and hybrids there are.

John, I used to grow approximately 130 species + many forms of certain species.  That count has paired back quite a bit through the years, although offset by a large increase in hybrids, so there are still lots of alliums here to pique my interest.  Sowing seed of some of the Iranian and Central Asian species starting a couple years back, and with many accessions from Kazakhstan last year (most have germinated), the numbers will hopefully increase, although it's a slow proposition with many of them, requiring 5-6 or more years from seed.  

For example, here is a photo (left) of some seedlings of A. shelkovnikovi, one of those dwarf C. Asian species with a ball of bloom just above wide leaves.  I sow my seed outside directly in the garden, marked with minimum of two labels.  In this view, you can see a couple fresh seedlings that just emerged a couple weeks ago, and a couple 2-year seedlings where the young immature leaves are starting to take on the gray curled leaf characteristics.  This was seed from Kurt Vickery.  The center photo shows a similar situation, with in-situ seedlings of Allium aff. elburzense (K.Vickery again), lots of fresh germination this year (2nd year germination) and a couple of silvery 2-year leaf sprouts fro germination last year.

Photo on the right shows fresh germination from Allium sp. coll. N. Sivas, Turkey, from NARGS Seed Exchange 2008-2009, which has only just germinated.  Folks, don't give up on those old seed sowings, you never know, one can still get good germination after 2 years!  Hooray!

Will catch up with other posts later.

...and I learned (in school?) that onion seed (Allium cepa) lost its viability rather quickly, that in practical terms it's not worth sowing seed more than a year old.  Is this only for the vegetable onion?  Only for dry seed?  Maybe moist storage prolongs viability?  Or maybe I'm just . . . . wrong?

RickR wrote:

...and I learned (in school?) that onion seed (Allium cepa) lost its viability rather quickly, that in practical terms it's not worth sowing seed more than a year old.  Is this only for the vegetable onion?  Only for dry seed?  Maybe moist storage prolongs viability?  Or maybe I'm just . . . . wrong?

I have no experience with A. cepa seed, but I can vouch for relatively long viability of Allium seed for several years, particularly those species with larger thick seed, or round pellet-like seed, versus those with flatter flake-like seed.  I find that 2nd year germination is quite common on certain types of Alliums species, such as those in the Melanocrommyum section (a la Allium giganteum types).

My experience is that seed of Allium cepa and fistulosum vegetable cultivars remains viable for 2-3 years, longer than the oft-quoted 1 year, at least under my storage conditions (cool cellar - 2-3C in winter and maybe up to 15C in summer).
 

Here's my carolinianum in flower last summer! However, I've seen a significantly larger, more vigorous plant in the botanical gardens in Tromsø in Northern Norway, it seems to like cool conditions.

Like the Allium hymenorrhizum pictures. I have  plants from 2 or 3 sources and none look at all like carolinianum. I have pictures of this species in both the Oxford and Copenhagen Botanical Gardens and I see that both look wrong!

McDonough wrote:

A. victorialis - closeup views showing the burlap-like reticulated bulb coats; the bulbs sitting at and above the soil level.
[attachthumb=2] [attachthumb=3]

Mark - I notice that all of your victorialis seem to have green rather than red bases. Is that correct? All of mine have red bases apart from Cantabria (that includes the Norwegian material, plants from the Kola Peninsular (NW Russia) and Asia (received as A. ochotense and ssp platyphyllum). Do you know if you find both green and red forms in the same populations?

two forms of
Allium akaka from Eastern Turkey

Some Alliums flowering here now:

Allium akaka
Allium litvinovii
Allium nevskianum
Allium platycaule

and an Allium which was hiding in the packet of A. platycaule; which it clearly is not! Maybe A. akaka??

More great Alliums Wim and Tony!

A couple of years ago I toured Northern Norway early June and a lovely white flowered Allium I hadn't seen before was in full bloom and I was told it was Allium humile. I can't find much reference to it on SRGC or here as it's such a lovely floriferous plant. It is very early (only paradoxum beats it here) and is a few days earlier than zebdanense. I was given a plant and it flowered here for the first time:

1) Picture taken in Tromsø, Northern Norway
2) I wondered what it was when i saw it in bud (I didn't immediately think Allium)
3-4) In flower last night

Beautiful Allium, Stephen! I regret I didn't ask for a bulb when I visited you ;D I will next time ;)

Last week I had several Allium experiences which I'd like to share with you. I've had a project the last 3 years for the Norwegian Genetic Resource Centre collecting old perennial edible onions from old gardens and mostly old people across Norway (mostly Allium x proliferum, Allium fistulosum, A. schoenoprasum, A. scorodoprasum and A. victorialis, about 11 species in total and well over 100 accessions).  I'm currently growing them out in my garden so that we can compare the different accessions. Anyway I had to give a presentation of the project at a seminar in Southern Sweden. On the way home, I visited the Copenhagen (Denmark) and Gøteborg (Gothenburg) botanical gardens and took a lot of Allium (and other) pictures. In particular, Gothenburg has an amazing collection of plants and I could easily spend a couple of days there.  

Gøteborg has an fantastic bulb garden with many Alliums in honour of Per Wendelbo (1927-1981) who was a botanist and professor at the garden, specialising in Himalayan plants and many of the plants in the garden were collected by him. Here is a selection (see the file names for the plant names):

The last batch from the Wendelbo garden, more from the open garden later. Let me know if you see any mistakes!

You have to mention, Stephen, that Per was a Norwegian (and I thought that he was an expert of bulbs from Iran (he also worked at the botanical garden in Teheran) and surrounding countries). He died 1981 in a car accident when he should start his work in Bergen.

Marvellous bulbs you show, anyway!

Yes, I thought he was Norwegian, but there is no mention of this important fact on the Swedish sign and I didn't find anything on his wikipedia page (very short), so I didn't mention it....

On the Norwegian wikipedia page, http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_Wendelbo you will see that the page is classified under Swedish Botanists....

By the way, the sign mentions that the garden contains some 1,600 accessions!

Stephenb wrote:

Yes, I thought he was Norwegian, but there is no mention of this important fact on the Swedish sign and I didn't find anything on his wikipedia page (very short), so I didn't mention it....

On the Norwegian wikipedia page, http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_Wendelbo you will see that the page is classified under Swedish Botanists....

By the way, the sign mentions that the garden contains some 1,600 accessions!

Better with this one then ;D
http://www.snl.no/.nbl_biografi/Per_Wendelbo/utdypning_%E2%80%93_1

Excellent, takk!

I have much to catch up on, and lots of Allium pics besides... still sidelined by a deadline for work, will try to catch up in a few days.

In the meantime, as I was wandering around the garden, it seemed that you were with me, Mark. See the following set of images (none of the plants were in flower, so I won't bore you with pictures of greens):

Stephenb wrote:

In the meantime, as I was wandering around the garden, it seemed that you were with me, Mark. See the following set of images (none of the plants were in flower, so I won't bore you with pictures of greens):

Stephen, that's so funny to see those labels.  Can't say for sure if I have true A. schoenoprasum 'Corsican White' white any more, it was the smallest thready-leaved form of chives I know of, but over time, all the chive forms intergrade and I've not been successful keeping most of them separate and isolated. except for my A. schoenoprasum 'Curly Mauve'.  Can't remember what my selection 'Sweet Pepper' is like; I remember it being a seedling of 'Pink Pepper', another casualty to an overly demanding work and life schedule and parts of my garden becoming swallowed up by weeds for several years... sigh.  Now, off to work I go!

I liked the label "(yet) another glaucum"....

I don't have a picture of Sweet Pepper or Pink Pepper, but I have a couple of pictures (a bit overexposed) of Summer Pink (see below) taken on my last visit in 2008 (I didn't notice your name then).

How did they end up in Gøteborg in 1997?

By the way, I planted seed propagated Corsican White (AGS seed) last year in my garden and they have made it through the winter (last time I tried they died). Why Corsican?

Stephen

What do you think of these onions, Onion man - or others?

They look very tasty... say on a baked potato with butter and sour cream.  ;D
Nice colour variation.

Skulski wrote:

They look very tasty... say on a baked potato with butter and sour cream.  ;D
Nice colour variation.

Well, I wouldn't eat them. They grow on a road verge and the verge is sprayed with herbicide every summer >:( :o

Good chive forms Trond.  Your top one looks like one I grow that I have nicknamed Allium schoenoprasum "silver tips" because of the way the pointy ends of the tepals fold back to catch glints of light.  I used to keep my various chive collections separate, maintaining the cultivars, but after many years, I'm afraid they have all blended into assorted array of pleasing forms.  Here are three photos showing this form.  It is also interesting, some chive forms are thrifty of foliage (such as this one) and other forms are much leafier.  I like the dark spathes on this form.

I have a number of white forms (Trond, your white one with darker veins is very nice), this one showed up a couple years ago but is overcrowding my Allium flavum tauricum plants so must move it.

From several dwarf white forms, they have interbred, and I get all sorts of pastel colors.

Stephenb wrote:

I liked the label "(yet) another glaucum"....

I don't have a picture of Sweet Pepper or Pink Pepper, but I have a couple of pictures (a bit overexposed) of Summer Pink (see below) taken on my last visit in 2008 (I didn't notice your name then).

How did they end up in Gøteborg in 1997?

By the way, I planted seed propagated Corsican White (AGS seed) last year in my garden and they have made it through the winter (last time I tried they died). Why Corsican?

Stephen

The name 'Corsican White' was based on the fact I grew a very dwarf form chives originally collected in Corsica, from seed sent to me by Richard Dadd in the UK.  I have long since lost the label and the actual collection location, but among the various lavender mauve forms, one white-flowered form arose, and this I propagated and distributed under the name A. schoenoprasum 'Corsican White'.

I used to get the yearly Index Seminum from Gøteborg years ago, and I believe I had sent them some Allium varieties as well, but frankly, I don't remember now, it's been so long.

As for Allium 'Pink Pepper', here is a photo from September 2010; I'm surprised it looked as good as it did because of our record-breaking heat and frought last summer and fall, these plants had virtually no water all summer.  The "pepper" part comes into play by virtue of the pink flowers being "peppered" with yellow stamens.  In flower, the plant is only 4-5" tall.

McDonough wrote:

Good chive forms Trond.  Your top one looks like one I grow that I have nicknamed Allium schoenoprasum "silver tips" because of the way the pointy ends of the tepals fold back to catch glints of light.  I used to keep my various chive collections separate, maintaining the cultivars, but after many years, I'm afraid they have all blended into assorted array of pleasing forms.  Here are three photos showing this form.  It is also interesting, some chive forms are thrifty of foliage (such as this one) and other forms are much leafier.  I like the dark spathes on this form.

I have a number of white forms (Trond, your white one with darker veins is very nice), this one showed up a couple years ago but is overcrowding my Allium flavum tauricum plants so must move it.

From several dwarf white forms, they have interbred, and I get all sorts of pastel colors.

Mark, you have them all!
But I must clarify, the chives are not mine but growing wild on a road verge. However I intend to rescue some of the best forms next time I pass by ;)

Pursuant to a more positive identification.  What is your best guess now, Mark...
Allium sikkimense?
                       
       

RickR wrote:

Pursuant to a more positive identification.  What is your best guess now, Mark...
Allium sikkimense?
                       

Sorry about late reply, but yes, looks like Allium sikkimense to me.  I find it so interesting that in some (most) forms, the buds and inflorescences are pendant to semi-pendant, but in other forms they are semi-erect to totally upright, as in your plants.  Good diagnostic images.

Welcome for its late flowering, although not terribly showy, is the European Allium ericetorum.

I forgot the source of my original plants, I had a couple different sources.  Gave plants to a friend (Marsha Russell) years ago of one of the forms.  Over the years, I lost both forms, but fortunately Marsha has it growing, and gave me back a nice clump.  Here's tow photos, one of A. ericetorum with a nice mossy-rock-outcropping background, and one showing a bit of that allium with a good display from pink-flowered A. saxatile.

Checking the species spelling on IPNI.ORG, I noticed that a new subspecies was recently published, must research to find out more about it:
Allium ericetorum Thore subsp. pseudosuaveolens (Zahar.) Ciocârlan -- Fl. Il. României 1083. 2009

On the type species, here's some information and photos from Flora of Italy:
http://luirig.altervista.org/schedeit/ae/allium_ericetorum.htm

In Spain:
http://www.asturnatura.com/especie/allium-ericetorum.html

A few photos from CalPhotos (they sometimes include photos of plants taken in different countries), here from Slovenia.  It seems that some forms are much more attractive than others:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?stat=BROWSE&query_src=photos...

A few more pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonjoan/2811072072/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonjoan/2810225635/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonjoan/2810224747/in/photostream/

Allium ericitorum is really attractive!  Nice to hear it's late-blooming - I think we are all constantly on the search for late flowers! 

No need to apologize for you reply, Mark.  We're all glad that you still find time to participate!  Thanks so much - and for the added insight on A. sikkimense, too.

Yes, the Slovenian form of A. ericetorum is especially attractive.  But I am a little biased: three of my grandparents immigrated from western Slovenia.  The species form from the Julian Alps has never been listed in the NARGS seed ex that I know of.  I would have snapped it up, even not knowing how nice it looks!  Najlepše!  (Most beautiful!)

I've missed much of the season this year, and now with days growing short and waning daylight, I don't get to see the garden until the weekend.

Just noticed last week (09-05-2011) that Allium callimischon ssp. callimischon was blooming, nearly swamped by Oenothera fremontii.  This particular Oenothera is taprooted and not stoloniferous, although the radial stems go 2' in each direction so make a robust circular plant 4' (1.3 m) across!  I do like it however, for the extra large yellow flower that continue until frost, each flower fading to orange by morning.  I plan on moving the Allium to some spot with less competition and where I can better enjoy at close hand its small dimensions. 

Sorry about the poor quality photo, it was nearly dark, and the digital camera I've been using (shared with my daughter) has now traveled with my daughter for her freshman year in college, so I'm using my telephone's built-in camera... 8 megapixel but with very limited presets and configurations, takes good photos indoors but terrible one in the landscape.

Seedlings of Allium fedtschenkoanum from Kazakhstan... I will be a happy man if they survive and mature to show gorgeous golden-yellow flowers as seen in the following links:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg173205#msg173205
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=7511.msg206332#msg206332

I've grown a number of Mexican species over the years collected by the late Thad Howard, a few species no longer with me.  Several have proved very hardy.  The following one was simply listed as Allium sp. collected Oaxaca, Mexico in moist soil... I believe it is Allium subteretifolium.  It only flowered once of twice about 10 years ago, can't remember what time of year it flowered, had few-flowered umbels of white dark-veined flowers.  For these past years it grows and increases happily outdoors in the ground, but NEVER blooms.

Another poor quality photo taken in low light, late flowering forms of Allium stellatum at their peak now.

It looks like the foliage of Allium callimischon ssp. callimischon has already died back?  Love the flowers, too!

RickR wrote:

It looks like the foliage of Allium callimischon ssp. callimischon has already died back?  Love the flowers, too!

Yes, this species is one of those tricky surprise fall bloomers; the foliage dies back in summer, leaving just bare stems and bud spathes that are so narrow to be indistinguishable from the stems, then suddenly in late summer they come back to life and pop into bloom.

Still waiting on Allium aff. thunbergii DJH (Dan J. Hinkley), which I believe is actually the closely related A. sacculiferum, notice how tight the budded heads are.

I was at the Garden In The Woods today, the display garden of the New England Wildflower Society... great plants to see there, and there were lots of seed heads on ramps, Allium tricoccum.  They're distinctive in how the shiny black pellet-like seed seem glued to the open capsules, having a bluish cast that catches and reflects light.  In its seed disposition, and early-season broad leaves that go dormant in summer, it shows affinity with Allium victorialis.

An update to Allium aff. thunbergii DJH (Dan J. Hinkley) shown in bud in the post above; I was away traveling for a week to return to see the small colony in full bloom.  To help compare with typical Allium thunbergii (and the selection 'Ozawa'), I have put some photos side by side.

The heads of A. thunbergii 'Ozawa' on the left, have fewer florets on pedicels that arch out and droop in an informal relaxed way.  In the middle is a robust seedling from A. thunbergii 'Ozawa' with more dense heads on taller stems, yet the drooping nature of the florets is still seen.  On the right is the Dan Hinkley selection going around as A. thunbergii but is closer to A. succuliferum in my opinion, the heads are densely flowered in firm spherical heads, without droopy pedicels.

Here's a general view showing the clump of A. sacculiferum, along with a small Gentiana clausa on the left, and Saxifraga fortunei just starting to flower in the lower-center left.

Another view of Allium aff. thunbergii DJH (Dan Hinkley) probably A. sacculiferum. Nice to have dependable small growing bulbs for the woodland or shaded garden for autumn bloom.

I'm cross-posting into the Allium topic, where one might better expect to find such information:

Allium robinsonii is a rare species that is found primarily along the Columbia River Gorge, but also found "inland" in a few counties in Central Washington State, it is considered extirpated (no longer found) in northern Oregon at the confluence of the John Day River with the Columbia River.
http://biology.burke.washington.edu/herbarium/imagecollection.php?ID=2438
http://web.ewu.edu/ewflora/Liliaceae/Allium%20robinsonii.html
...this image show the habitat, growing in pure sand, amongst scattered rocks of black basalt:
http://biology.burke.washington.edu/herbarium/imagecollection/imagelarge...

Back in the 1980s I spent a lot of time looking for this rarity, and found it growing among "sand benches", low flat areas just above the high water mark, sharing company with Salvia dorrii, often catching a bit of shade or protection at the base of these low gnarly shrubs:
http://biology.burke.washington.edu/herbarium/imagecollection.php?ID=2372

...and delightful Erigeron poliospermus:
http://biology.burke.washington.edu/herbarium/imagecollection.php?ID=444
http://www.wnps.org/plants/erigeron_poliospermus.html

Mark, do you have these onions ;)
http://yuzawa-engei.net/11English/02Allium/Allium_page.html

Hoy wrote:

Mark, do you have theese onions ;)
http://yuzawa-engei.net/11English/02Allium/Allium_page.html

I do!  Trond, an excellent nursery link (they have seed too) of many desirable plants.

I love the autumn alliums, and I'm happy to have found plants listed as Allium thunbergii alba at a local nursery this late summer, but in fact since it is such a small grower (about 3-4" tall, 7.5-10 cm)) and fewer-flowered than most thunbergii forms, maybe this is a white form of Allium virgunculae instead.  After drenching rains for several days, the flowers look perfect today.

View of Allium "thunbergii" or virgulculae alba with Saxifraga fortunei blooming in the background:

Two closeup views showing the perky pure white flower clusters:

Still waiting for the tiny Allium virgunculae to open its flowers, now still in tight bud, with flower stems at about 2" (5 cm) tall.

A reliable old planting of Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa' planted at the base of a Magnolia tree.

Two views of a tall form of Allium thunbergii sent to me by a friend last year.

Those little guys are so sweet!

You lucked out, Mark!

A miscellany of Alliums to post.

The issue of harvesting seed on the late blooming alliums comes up sometimes. Some are starting to set seed pods, and depending on the year and the weather, it is sometimes possible to get some seed. In this photo we see some developing pods on Allium aff. thunbergii (probably A. sacculiferum) collected by Dan Hinkley.  If the pods are left on to mature, it is likely they'll succumb to soaking rain and snow, so they can be picked in the green and allowed to dry out inside to get some viable seed.

The very small form of Allium virgunculae that I showed in bud earlier finally opened its flowers, this shot taken Oct. 25, 2011... a tiny delight.

Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa' and white Allium thunbergii alba still going strong.

A seedling grown from Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa' has for the last 4-5 years proved to be a rather tall robust form of A. thunbergii.  This year it is flowering later than normal, still just mostly in bud with a few first florets opening.

Below... a seed-grown plant from Jim Jones' variegated form of Allium nutans shows variable amounts of variegation, some leaves nearly totally variegated, other leaves partially variegated, and many leaves all green.  The flowers are "uggo" (ugly) but I'm happy to have at least one of the seedlings grow on and show some level of strong variegation.

Last photo, I was sent bulbs from the Netherlands of an Allium simply called Allium 'Cameleon' (I am told, the European spelling of the word leaves out the "h" or "chameleon" as we spell it in the US.  This plant was reputedly an American species, but is actually a Mediterranean species; mostly likely A. trifoliatum of A. longanum.  The fact the foliage emerges in the fall and remains through the winter (and the broad hairy-ciliate edged leaves) 100% rule this out as an American species; it is most certainly one of the two species I mentioned.

Great pictures, Mark. I particularly liked the virgunculae...

I was in Kew Gardens in London on 1st October, a day when record temperatures for the time of year were being recorded. It was over 30C that day. In the alpine house there were a couple of thunbergiis which were both still in bud. The first is "Ozoke", the other with no cultivar name. Both were pot grown:

Stephen, I like the really grassy clump-forming one in the second photo, looks more like a virgunculae variety.  I used to have such a form, would like to rebuild my collection of these sweet little fall bloomers.  Need to refresh my memory of the recent revised taxonomy on the thunbergii-virgulculae clan (that I had posted on SRGC), here are some links:

Allium virgunculae var. kiiense, var. koshikiense (published 2009), var. yakushimense (published 1998), and the species pseudojaponicum, austrokyushuense, jump into the fray with thunbergii as well.

http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg170443#msg170443

http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg169576#msg169576

Map of Allium virgunculae varieties:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg169700#msg169700 

Allium thunbergii 'Ozawas' is finally in best bloom now.

RickR wrote:

Allium thunbergii 'Ozawas' is finally in best bloom now.

Very nice Rick.  In your photos, the pedicels look dark charcoal color instead of green, which is particularly attractive!

McDonough wrote:

Very nice Rick.  In your photos, the pedicels look dark charcoal color instead of green, which is particularly attractive!

A trait that occurs only with the onset of cold (freezing?) weather. But the stems are similarly colored, too.

Nice onion, Rick! Notice that Ozoke from Kew which I posted above also has dark pedicels!

Stephenb wrote:

Nice onion, Rick! Notice that Ozoke from Kew which I posted above also has dark pedicels!

Hmmm, I'll have to go look at my various thunbergii forms for pedicel color. Stephen, at first I didn't notice the reddish color to the A. thunbergii 'Ozawa' picture you posted.  By the way, just to keep the naming straight, the spelling 'Ozoke' is a name corruption for 'Ozawa' that's often encountered in cultivation... even at Kew ;)

I got this as a dwarf form of thunbergii but could it be virgunculae?

Todd wrote:

I got this as a dwarf form of thunbergii but could it be virgunculae?

Very nice Todd, rather profuse flowering isn't it.  Well, the taxonomy on these little Japanese autumn blooming onions is something to wade through, check the links above for information on recently described species in the thunbergii-virgunculae alliance, and three varieties of Allium virgunculae, or use this link: http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=576.msg11906#msg11906
These link back to lengthy discussions on the SRGC forum.

I believe lots of the smaller "thunbergii" forms going around out there might in fact be one of the varieties of A. virgunculae... here's a photo link to A. virgunculae var. kiiense.
http://hanamist.sakura.ne.jp/flower/tansiyo/yuri/kiito.html

Just obtained seed of Allium platycaule the originals of which were a Jim Archibald collection under JCA 12988. Should I treat them as a winter or summer grower please?

deesen wrote:

Just obtained seed of Allium platycaule the originals of which were a Jim Archibald collection under JCA 12988. Should I treat them as a winter or summer grower please?

Seed of most Western American Allium species requires cold stratification, I recommend sowing now, you should get germination in spring.  Allium platycaule is a spring growing/flowering onion, it goes dormant immediately after flowering and stay dormant for the rest of the year. Accordingly, can't get much growth out of these in a year, so it typically takes minimum 3-5 years for flowering.  Good luck, it's a worthwhile species to wait for.

Many thanks for that Mark.

A friend on mine in Germany has obtained seeds of Nothoscordum montividense ssp minorum and is seeking advice as to the best time to sow them. Can anyone help please?

David, one of my favorite little bulbs, I only have one small windowsill where I overwinter some of these cute little yellow Nothoscordums. 

Nothoscordum montevidense and ssp. minarum are easy from seed.  Since it flowers twice a year, late fall to winter and again in spring, one can get seed in spring, and if indoor autumn blooms are hand pollinated, one can get late season seed too.  Mine are throwing up some blooms now, but I haven't bothered to pollinate them much less look at them, because I don't see them during the week (it's dark when I leave in the morning and dark when I get home). Seed sown, watered, and kept frost free (warm) germinates easily. 

Many thanks for that Mark, I'll pass it on.