Jeffersonia

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Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

I'm not too familiar with how long you can moist pack seed before they'll start germinating on their own, or rotting... Kristl Walek would know.

I neglected to post this season's best photos of Jeffersonia dubia Korean Form, so here they are.  Still in bloom now, after 9 days, but the photo shown on the left was taken on about day 4 (in the sun) and the photo on the right taken on day 6 (cloudy).

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

RickR
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-09-21

Yes, best photos indeed, Mark!

I get almost as much enjoyment with my failures as with successes, especially when it comes to seeds.  When you said,
I'm not too familiar with how long you can moist pack [Jeffersonia dubia] seed before they'll start germinating on their own, or rotting
I may be able to provide some tangential experience.  Through more happenstance than planned and methodical regiment, this is my unofficial, non-scientific,  and inconclusive experience so far with a particulaar batch of dubia seeds.  Take from it what you will.  Edit: I thought these were Jeffersonia, but they are actually Allium triccocum

June 2011: collected J. dubia Allium triccocum seeds from my own plant. 
Immediately placed between moist paper towels at 65-80F.  (I don't have air conditioning).
They plumped even more into very dark, round balls.

August: the moist towels dried somewhat, to the point that a visible shrinking could be seen with the seeds.
After re-wetting, they returned to there previous size.

October: still no germination. Placed in fridge.

February 2012: Brought 65f.

May: Still no germination.  Placed back in fridge.

September: After forgetting about them, I took half the seed and planted them.  These are now spending the winter (and spring, if it ever comes) outside.  The other half is still in the fridge.  They look unchanged, still plump and still very firm.  This is a photo of them now:

April 2013

   

Rick Rodich    zone 4a.    Annual precipitation ~24 inches
near Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

Hoy
Hoy's picture
Title: Member
Joined: 2009-12-15

It's like Schrödinger's cat - they are either dead or alive; and you can't know before something happens ;D

Trond
Rogaland, Norway - with cool, often rainy summers  (29C max) and mild, often rainy winters (180 cm/year)!

Tim Ingram
Title: Member
Joined: 2011-04-27

Rick, I'm really surprised those didn't germinate in the spring. I've always sown Jeffersonia seed (the few times I've got much) in pots as soon as I collect it, but with other such plants I have put moist-packed seed in an airing cupboard and then sown outside for the normal winter cold. It could be they really need constant percolation of moisture throughout the winter to allow germination to proceed. I think the ideal must be to sow fresh in pots in a cool place so they experience as close to natural conditions as possible. I like Mark's idea of sowing directly in the garden, except this isn't so effective for the nurseryman.

Dr. Timothy John Ingram
Faversham, Kent, UK
I garden in a relatively hot and dry region (for the UK!), with an annual rainfall of around 25", winter lows of -10°C and summer highs of 30°C.
 

Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

Tim, I'm not sure why you didn't get germination.  On Jeffersonia, this is one that typically don't do my scratch-and-sow-in-place technique (although one year I experimented with that too), I typically collect the seed and then within a week or two, all gets sown in peat flats and covered with wire to keep chipmunks from eating the seed (they love em).  The flats sit on the ground in contact with the earth, and get sprinkled regularly. In  spring, they germinate with such vigor that they tend to left the crust of soil up as a layer.  I've done this with both species the last three years, and have gotten consistently strong germination, and always with diphylla being the slightly slower germinator.

One year as a test, I prepped an area approximately 4' x 5', and sowed the seed in place (immediately after seed was ready).  Also had tremendous germination, but after 4 years, with animal trampling (an occassional deer passing through), mole tunneling, and other invading plants, it's not a sheet of Jeffersonia.  But the area still has LOTS of Jeffersonia seedling plants there, growing in clusters or small colonies, this year small plants flowering in significant number.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

RickR
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-09-21

Oh the HORROR !!!!!

My most excellent J.dubia has been eaten.  Eaten alive!

Dang varmints!  This part of the garden is the last to thaw, and when I did my initial garden cleaning, all the old petioles had been severed, just as mice do with lawn grass over winter, and all the buds gone. :'(
            27 April 2013
   
You can see a few buds left at the outer edges, where they would have been a little under and hidden.

Thankfully, a few more have emerged also, and all is not lost.
             8 May 2013
   

              PHEW !

Rick Rodich    zone 4a.    Annual precipitation ~24 inches
near Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

OMG Rick, that's terrible! :'(  I shed Jeffersonian tears for this sad development.

It seems that when there's just one of something, that's when something happens to it.  At least there's new shoots coming up at the periphery, and hopefully it'll rejuvenate to some level.  Depending on it's level of renewed growth, maybe it would be prudent to attempt a division, just so that you have more than one plant in the garden.

Dang varmints!!!

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

cohan
cohan's picture
Title: Guest
Joined: 2011-02-03

Sorry to hear, Rick, hopefully there is enough left underground to regenerate..

west central alberta, canada; just under 1000m; record temps:min -45C/-49F;max 34C/93F; http://picasaweb.google.ca/cactuscactus  http://urbanehillbillycanada.blogspot.com/

CScott
Title: Member
Joined: 2010-02-23

This is a very long thread on Jeffersonia!

Having just set the moist packed seeds out for a winter sowing.

Thanks for all the information of this thread.

RickR
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-09-21

Hoy wrote:

It's like Schrödinger's cat - they are either dead or alive; and you can't know before something happens ;D

 

 

Something happened !!!

So to catch up on what had previously been going on with the Jeffersonia Allium triccocum seed I harvested in 2011, you can look at an earlier post in this thread here: https://www.nargs.org/comment/4409#comment-4409

Since then (April 2013), I just left them alone, kinda as a lost cause, and they stayed in their moist paper towel in a closed container and on a table next to the outside wall of the house.  They endured temps of 80 plus degrees F in summer, and temps as low as 45F nights this winter.  In early December there was still no activity.  But now...

               

The cool temps finally triggered germination, as normal.  I suppose that after the seeds' initial hydration, the drying up in 2011 must have put it into a very deep dormancy.

Incidentally, there are still three dormant seeds.

So now more investigation and questions....

I had assumed that with this kind of germination mode,

--- first a root would grow

--- a crown would establish

--- then the first true leaf would emerged from the crown

This is not right then, if I assume that the dark green part is a developing leaf.  Does anyone have any insight?

It appears there is a secondary root growing here, possibly indicating where the crown is....

 

 

 

Rick Rodich    zone 4a.    Annual precipitation ~24 inches
near Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

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