"We are Luddites" - Peter George's article in RGQ 70 #1

[IMYoung]

The NARGS Forum could be instrumental in increasing membership, it needs to be recognized and promoted.

 That is very true. The Forum can be a terrific tool to enthuse readers and draw in members.

As a further comment to this.... for the SRGC, five out of every six new members come via the website.

As an international club, the SRGC Forum has also become the equivalent of a "local chapter" where members separated by thousands of miles can find  common ground and convene for all the plant discussion and social interaction that is afforded to those lucky enough to be able to take part in chapter activities locally. 
Of course NARGS has an international membership too (witness the number of overseas members taking part in the forum) but with the huge land mass that is North America, the forum can be just a vital a meeting place for "home" members!

[Lis Allison]

I would certainly echo Mark's comments about the value of the website and forum. .....

David may be right that in America there is less need to be concerned......

(hope this works - I may have deleted too much)  {Moderator's note:  I fixed the quote for you, Lis!   Lori}

Anyway. I agree with Mark that the website and forum are pretty good from a user's point of view. As to the maintenance/updating point of view, I of course don't know.

But I disagree with David! I think it is worse in America (and Canada). We do not have the same respect for gardening that the Brits do. Simply put, it isn't fashionable right now.

I would also like to make the comment that many of our younger people simply do not have the time or leisure to get involved in gardening. They are either unemployed, in which case they are truly stymied, or they are working 16-hour days, 6 days a week. This is probably not a permanent situation, but what the future holds is anybody's guess. One thing I would like to know: how many members did NARGS have in each year, starting from, say, 1995? I think we'll see a peak around 1999-2000-2001, ie the tech boom, then a sharp drop. But are we now below 1995 levels? If so, how much is due to the housing crash?

Maybe this is just a bad patch.

[Lis Allison]

Sorry, I did delete too much, so my reply looks like it is all a quote. It isn't - only the beginning is. I couldn't figure out how to cancel my post?


[Moderator note:  Lis, the quote has to start with the {quote} and end with {/quote}, or else it will not look as intended.  When you do this yourself, replace { with [ (square brackets).  If you delete too much when shortening the quoted section, you can either "undo" the deletion or just type in the missing bit.       Lori]

[Peter George]

I must say that I'm pleased about the responses to my article. I have also received about 90 emails from members around the globe with a variety of comments, some of which are quite illuminating and candid. I am looking forward to the conversation continuing and I will comment here as often as I can, and try to address the responses a few at a time.

Let's start with the membership issue. We have an organization with somewhere between 2600 and 3000 members. We have about 2650 actual memberships, but quite a few are for multiple people, so that accounts for the uncertainty of our 'real' membership number. The primary areas of concern for me are two: first, our chapters, all found in North America, have a much larger aggregate membership than NARGS does. Second, our membership is aging, and our median age is moving 'up' as well.

The first issue is a simple one to describe, but a difficult one to address. In simple terms, there are literally thousands of people in the U.S. and Canada who are interested enough in rock gardening to join Chapters, but for one or more reasons, won't join NARGS. To me, that issue is the single biggest challenge confronting us today. I've spoken to hundreds of people about it over the years, and I believe that the problem is the result of two factors. First, the Chapters themselves are not 'selling' NARGS to the members. We have a number of Chapters where the total NARGS membership is as small as 5%, which is (to me, at least) absolutely unacceptable. We are offering our members a tremendous value, yet among our most logical 'demographic,' we can't persuade a majority of people to join NARGS. Second, we are offering benefits like the Speaker's Tour to Chapters that have no apparent commitment to NARGS, and whose membership is made up of people who have no financial stake in NARGS. It's not unreasonable to ask why NARGS is subsidizing speakers for Chapters that are simply not interested in promoting NARGS membership, and whose members simply won't join. Yesterday I received the membership list of a well established NARGS Chapter with over 100 members and I compared it to the NARGS membership list. I found that of the 105 Chapter members, 23 were NARGS members! And this Chapter is going to get a speaker from the 2012 tour, which we are subsidizing. Is that fair?

The second issue, aging membership, is also a difficult one to address. I've heard from a lot of people about this issue, and there are a couple of threads that run through all of the responses. One surprising problem is the difficulty new people have in getting integrated into Chapters. They join NARGS, go to a chapter meeting, are ignored, go again, continue to be ignored, and then stop coming. I personally experienced this when I joined NARGS in 1996, but instead of quitting entirely, I simply attended a different chapter where I was received much more enthusiastically. But it appears that I was the exception, and that far too many younger newbies are put off by the insularity of the Chapter members, and quit before they ever really have a chance to feel like family. The second problem is that younger people either don't have time for meetings given work and family responsibilities, or the meetings themselves are not all that interesting. I've suggested using video to capture and store lectures, etc. and using the website to stream them, allowing members to access programs remotely. And some of my other suggestions would offer potential for addressing the 'don't have time for meetings' issue, and perhaps would get us more members over time, particularly younger members.

I'll continue to post my thoughts, and please, continue to post yours.

[RickR]

The point about Chapters using NARGS's benefits without contributing is very valid.  But I wouldn't want to make a speaker tour unavailable to a non-contributing Chapter.  I am not at all suggesting that Peter implied this.  My point is, how can we make this more fair?
Maybe a set NARGS Speaker Tour fee,  that can then be adjusted with credits earned by the Chapter for contributing to the national Society.  Credits might be garnered by helping with the Seed Exchange, percentage of Chapter members that are national members, hosting study weekends, or helping in other ways.

-------------------
The younger generations in general are a lot more "sensitive" to offense (real or imagined) and more "needy" than older folks for the most part.  We can't change that or ignore it.  Our Chapter tries to seek out new attendees visiting at our  meetings, and also gives them recognition during the short business meeting, so that all have the chance to greet the guest(s).  It can be difficult to fit this in among all the conversation with people that we don't see, except at meetings, but we must make the effort.  As Peter says, it is very important.

--------------
I joined the National Organization right away, when I joined the Chapter.  I was daunted by the academic style of the Bulletins: except for the photographs, it all seemed greek to me, and I dropped the membership for a while.  But I think the new formatting of the Rock Garden Quarterly in the last year has address that successfully.

[McDonough]

And now for something a bit different.  As I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of Facebook for a number of reasons, but have acquiesced to its dominance in the social networking front, and now "meet up" with a number of plant people and plant groups regularly.  Hint:  if you ever need to find Panayoti, look into some of the Facebook plant "Groups"  Just joined another one tonight named "Hardy Stonecrops" with some excellent photos and discussion posted on sedums, sempervivums, orostachys and such. I wish these people would post as much on the plant forums such as NARGS & SRGC.

Once on Facebook and joining some FB groups, and accumulating some plantsy-type FB "friends", your Facebook "newsfeed" is filled daily with plant news, postings, and photos, mixed in with any and all other items that get auto-populated to one's newsfeed.  You might find the damnedest things showing up, it's a constant visual potpourri, with items that might pique one's curiosity, a constant ticker-tape of ticklers, although much of it frivolous blather.  Frankly, I'd much rather be in the NARGS Forum, where the repository of knowledge is forever growing and building a tremendous knowledgebase, unlike Facebook with its ephemeral "newsfeed"; after a certain amount of stuff scrolls by, in a couple weeks it's no longer retrievable (unless photos and content are posted to Groups or personal FB photo galleries).  But it seems, some people are really drawn to the Facebook experience, so again, I acquiesce.

Sometimes really interesting things get posted.  One such item, was a photo of unidentified cushion plants growing in black soil; a most compelling photo of surreal effect.  It was posted by Plantifleurs L'Univers, the photo entitled 'Rarefaction Italy', and a plant person on FB asked the question, what plant do you think these cushions are, with a reasonable guess of Dianthus.  To me, the plants had more of a Saponaria look, with the flowers at the perimeter of the cushions.  The puzzle was before me, so I sprung into action, bounded into Google, flipped to Images mode, and typed in keywords; something like saponaria volcanic Italy, and lo and behold, a similar image popped up of the same area, ends up being Saponaria sicula, a rare endemic species growing in black volcanic soil atop Mt. Etna, Sicily.  How cool is that.  

An image of my Facebook page, with the Plantifleurs L'Univers photo entitled 'Rarefaction Italy' on my newsfeed, to show non-Facebook users what the newsfeed looks like.


Facebook link (note: Facebook links might not work for non-Facebook folks):
Plantifleurs L'Univers photo entitled 'Rarefaction Italy'
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.105144526246201.8982.100002519622435&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=209547339139252&set=a.105144526246201.8982.100002519622435&type=3&theater

Facebook link to Plantifleurs L'Univers super-duper amazing photo gallery!  (fantastic landscapes, some plants too)
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.105144526246201.8982.100002519622435&type=3

Flickr photo (this will work for everyone):
Saponaria sicula (Endemic flora of Mount Etna to 2.000 m)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luigistrano/6064835036/

2nd photo, close-up of Saponaria sicula and Senecio aetnensis:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luigistrano/6064835692/in/photostream/

[James McGee]

The best advice I can give is a quote attributed to the late Steve Jobs.

“There’s a phrase in Buddhism, ‘Beginner’s mind.’ It’s wonderful to have a beginner’s mind.”

James

[Tim Ingram]

I wish this sort of open debate would occur on the AGS site because it is much needed. The comments that Peter makes about the NARGS Chapters apply similarly in the UK and there has been much discussion about Group members not joining the parent Society, and also the difficulty of new members integrating into Groups - this must certainly be true for younger people even with the best will in the world. One way I have tried to push to get round this is is to use our gardens as a way of introducing new gardeners to the Society. This has the benefit of being much more personal, and has the added benfit of raising money for the Groups. Another is concentrating more on propagating and selling plants, which again is essentially what new gardeners are most interested in. For some gardeners given the right initial stimulation it can be a very rapid learning curve to becoming completely fascinated by plants, and here the web and this forum must kick in to provide much more interaction.

James - I'm not so sure about Buddha; he justs sits there beatifically and doesn't do a great deal! But the beginner's mind does seem very apposite.

[AmyO]

"One surprising problem is the difficulty new people have in getting integrated into Chapters. They join NARGS, go to a chapter meeting, are ignored, go again, continue to be ignored, and then stop coming."

Peter, I had the exact same experience when I joined my chapter and did stop attending meetings. If it wasn't for the then newly elected pres. of the group...Tom Clark....I would never have gone back. He was the only member who did welcome me and I'm sure others after he sent out a questionaire asking what in particular could be improved on in the chapter. As well as other pointed questions. I did let him know my personal experience with the group, and went back to a lecture I really wanted to see...he was so welcoming and I could see how he took my experience to heart. I am now good friends with many of the chapter members, but I was the one who had to make most of the overtures of friendship with the older members. And I know I am now more mindful of this when I see a new face in the group.

[James McGee]

James - I'm not so sure about Buddha; he justs sits there beatifically and doesn't do a great deal! But the beginner's mind does seem very apposite.

I went to a Thailand New Years celebration when I was in college.  They were some of the most welcoming and happy people I had ever met.  Maybe the Far East has more to offer us than new and exotic plants...  Maybe more beatification is exactly what the world needs.

James

[Lis Allison]

..... First, the Chapters themselves are not 'selling' NARGS to the members..... Second, we are offering benefits like the Speaker's Tour to Chapters that have no apparent commitment to NARGS, and whose membership is made up of people who have no financial stake in NARGS. It's not unreasonable to ask why NARGS is subsidizing speakers for Chapters that are simply not interested in promoting NARGS membership, and whose members simply won't join.

..... One surprising problem is the difficulty new people have in getting integrated into Chapters. They join NARGS, go to a chapter meeting, are ignored, go again, continue to be ignored, and then stop coming. ....

In both cases, I again say that Chapters need to be managed. Some are good, others are not. It all depends on the leaders.... but, in my opinion, all Chapter members should automatically be NARGS members, and NARGS should help the Chapter leaders run a good Chapter. A bit of coaching, a bit of quality control, a bit of encouraging would go far. The problem of new members being ignored is so easy to fix it isn't funny. All the leaders have to do is ask for new members at the meeting, then say 'Welcome', and let them say a word or two about themselves or their gardens or plans for such. They can so easily, by their personal example, send the clear message to the membership that newbies are to be welcomed and appreciated. That is all it takes but some Chapter leaders need to be taught that. And that is only one example.

The managing/coaching I am talking about can be very simple and would be a great service to those who would like to run an interest group, ie, make working on a NARGS Chapter a great learning experience. This would help Chapters attract volunteers. There could be a Handbook, a thread on the Forum (maybe there is?), a yearly or bi-annual conference/workshop for leaders, a newsletter.... surely there are people in NARGS who have the skills to set these things up and would enjoy running them. Some of the content may already exist and can be found and spiffed up a bit to start.

There needs to be 'something in it' for Chapters to be part of NARGS, else they could just be garden clubs. If they don't want NARGS supervision, they can always do that. If they want speakers, access to NARGS resources, all that, they should have to be Chapters and have to follow NARGS policies. Membership in Chapters could include $5 for NARGS. In the example of the Chapter with 105 members only 5 of which were NARGS members, you would be giving up $100 but gaining $525. (I may have these numbers wrong - I forget what NARGS costs- but you get the point.) Membership would not include the Quarterly, BTW, it would have to be subscribed to separately. Since most Chapter members that also belong to NARGS have joined in order to get the Quarterly, I don't think the number of Q subscribers would change much.

The transition to this model would likely cause some existing Chapters to either close or split into two groups. They would have to raise their membership dues and some would resent that and drop out. Others would lose their membership in other organizations - for example, the Ontario Chapters have joined the Ontario Horticultural Association in order to get affordable liability insurance, but are forced to act like hardy plant groups, also much resented by some members - but I think that in general the membership would hardly notice. Each Chapter would of course have to vote on it, but I think that if the issue is presented properly, most will accept it.

[Peter George]

I honestly wish it was so easy. But it's not, and here are the problems.
1. Several chapters have simply moved away from NARGS over the past decade, and have little or no interest in being part of the larger organization. They haven't officially separated yet, but if there was a vote taken at the Chapter level, I could name as many as 5 Chapters that would vote to leave NARGS. And among those chapters are several that are both large and vibrant. They do benefit from NARGS to some degree, but what they get as a Chapter is probably not sufficient to increase their level of interest or involvement.
2. Our annual dues are $30. for North Americans, and $5.00 would not be even close to sufficient to cover the real costs of membership. I know that there are some people who can't afford $30 per year, but the truth is that 90% of the Chapter members who are not NARGS members are not in that category. They simply choose not to join. In the past year I've had to deal with several Chapter Chairs who refused to join NARGS, even though NARGS membership is a requirement to serve as a Chapter leader. In one case the Chapter actually had to pay for their Chair's membership, and it was certainly NOT due to poverty. As an organization, our dues are kept to the absolute minimum in order to make it easy to join, and when we find out about someone who is having a problem with the dues, which we do surprisingly often, we simply waive the dues for the year. But we're not going to lower our dues to $5 just to bring in people who have no real interest in NARGS. We might as well open it up to everyone on a voluntary contribution basis. I'm not sure how well that particular financial model would work.
3. If "training" Chapter Chairs actually was possible, we'd do it. But in general, most of our Chapters have tremendous resistance to ANY interference from NARGS. We have Chapter Chairs that refuse to even respond to emails from me or Bobby Ward, and we've actually declared a chapter 'inactive' this year, primarily because the Chair refused to communicate with us. Other Chapter Chairs with which I've communicated are just not interested in doing anything beyond having a few meetings a year, and every effort we've made to 'assist' them has been rebuffed or ignored.

I have on several occasions suggested to the Administrative Committee that we require, say, a 50% NARGS membership before Chapters could qualify for being on the Speaker's Tour, or one or two other requirements that could motivate Chapters to promote NARGS membership more successfully. It hasn't gotten any real support. Top down dictates in organizations like NARGS rarely accomplish anything other than alienation, and although it would certainly make ME feel good for a few minutes, it wouldn't accomplish our goals. My own Chapter, the Berkshire Chapter, barely has the 50% membership level, and even though I know every person in the Chapter, and have spoken to each one about the issue, they simply won't join. I truly cannot understand it, but that IS reality. So what we can do is try to improve the organization by making the Quarterly better every issue, improving the internet component, improving our speakers, improving the Seed Exchange, etc. If we make the benefits better, we should get more members. SHOULD!

Keep up the discussion.

[Lis Allison]

Then why have Chapters at all? Sounds like not having them would be a relief.

[McDonough]

A most excellent question Lis!

I hope it doesn't come down to that, as I do enjoy getting to NARGS Chapter meetings when I can.

Hearing the argument over and over again about people who say they can't afford a $30 per year membership; I find such claims astounding this day an age, where a typical doctor visit co-pay is $20, taking in a movie for 3 people is $30 (no candy or refreshments though, double it if one gets drinks and candy), a tank of gas is $30-$50 each fill up, a dinner for two at a restaurant is easily around $50 (if you're lucky, and no alcoholic drinks either), a visit to McDonalds for my family of four costs $22-$23 these days!  I took my pennies and loose change container to one of those machines at grocery stores that automatically counts the dumped in change (the machine charges a small percentage for this "lose change consolidation" process), and I had over $100 in small coins refunded as cash.  

Being unemployed recently for 17 months, I know first hand what it's like to carefully watch expenses, but my guess is that someone saying they can't afford $30 for a year membership doesn't want to afford a year membership.  The low cost for membership is a drop in the bucket; try ordering 25-35 packets of seed, or going to your local market and buying 25-35 packets of annuals and vegetable seed and see what it costs; double or triple or quadruple the annual cost of joining NARGS.

[Peter George]

If NARGS was starting from scratch today I think we'd have some Chapters, but we'd be more careful about where we set them up and we'd be more specific about what each Chapter was responsible for, what they were going to be required to do to keep their Chapter status, what their benefits would be, and I am confident that we would require that every Chapter member first be a member of NARGS, and that they maintain that membership or their Chapter membership would lapse.

My Chapter, the Berkshire Chapter, has in its By Laws a requirement that all BNARGS members must first be a NARGS member. It is a By Law that hasn't been enforced for many years, and for us to start enforcing it now would create a real problem for the Chapter. And the wording does not require ongoing NARGS membership, just membership at the moment one joins the chapter. But that doesn't address the issue of 'why do we have Chapters?' Well, my guess is that we have them for more than historical reasons, and if we dissolved them we'd probably lose quite a few members. But more importantly, we'd lose the geographically centered locations where we have meetings, plant sales, lectures, etc. Without those activities, we'd lose a lot of our identity and eventually, our actual existence.

So again we return to the simple question of what to do about the fact that so many Chapter members won't join NARGS. Ron gave us one rather elegant suggestion, but I'd like more so I can present them as a package to the Board of Directors and see what happens at our meeting in Washington this March.