Lilies, anyone?

[deesen]

Lovely stuff Dave.

[Hoy]

Very nice, Dave. How many lilies do you have?

[Michael]

Good Day to All,

I'm Michael Loos, Interlaken, NY.  I've been a gardener for many years and recently re-upped with NARGS.  Just moved and bought a property in upstate, hopefully to have the place for the next 50 years.  I've been in communication with Rick about martagons and have a few other lily queries.

The lilies I've had have been left in the previous garden (Mom would miss them) and I'm buying a few in the next few weeks.  I'd like to scale them before they go into the ground.  I've twin-scaled Amaryllidaceae, but when is the best time to scale a true lily?  Spring?  Fall?  Does it matter species to species?  Does the type of germination for seed, epigeal vs hypogeal, correlate to timing for scaling?

On a more business-y note - where have you all been shopping?  I'm looking at B&D, and the Lily Garden for more uncommon hybrid selections.  Are there any places that actually have bulbs of the rarer species?  (Brent and Becky's has a few.) Would any of you have things to sell?  I'll be working with the upcoming second round seed distribution.  Perhaps there will be a thing or two available.

This is a good thread.  I've been enjoying (read: lusting after) the pictures.  There is great commentary and information.  Fantastic stuff!

Thank you,

Michael
Zone 5, but this winter 7, so far.

[RickR]

Welcome aboard, Michael!

I have to admit that I had to look up twin scaling:
http://www.bulbsociety.org/About_Bulbs/BULB_BASICS/Twinscaling.html
Goodness, the potential multiplication of plants is mind boggling!  I've never tried it myself.  As a gardener, I would never have the need for such a population.

Twin-scaling certainly is a lot of cutting and wounding, presenting a myriad of entry points for disease.  As of yet, exactly sterile conditions is not something I am willing to fuss with, so I won't be doing it in the near future.  But don't let me stop you.  Twin scaling should work fine with lilies.  Most people just use whole scales, and sterile conditions are not so important.

The idea to include a tiny bit of basal plate is sound and advantageous, but usually not necessary.  Bulblets can be more plentiful and more precocious with a piece of basal plate.  In general, the closer to the basal plate that a scale is removed, the better potential for success.  Consequently, I try to remove individual scales with a small knife (cutting very close to or including the basal plate), rather than the unexacting method of breaking them off with fingers.  This concept is more important with less vigorous lilies, often species.  Hybrids seldom require such scrutiny.  I am not sure where the slower growing tetraploids fall in this respect.

Another thing one might investigate is that with lilies, the basal plate seems to be more susceptible to disease.  I am not sure if this is because it is at the bottom of the bulb where excess moisture might accumulate, or if it is inherent in the genetic make up.

When is the best time to scale a true lily?  Does it matter species to species?

General consensus for timing is when the bulb is "dormant".  But I really think that is more a result of experience by convenience, rather than trial and error.  Few people dig lilies during their growing phase, and even fewer attempt scaling these.  

That said, I have come across one exception with Lilium monadelphum, and I suspect it might include its other allied Caucsian Lilium spp.  The study found that optimum bulblet production from scaling of L. monadelphum occurs right after flowering, and becomes less successful as the season progresses.  The study also found that scaling the species when dormant failed.  But, at least one anecdotal account (on the SRGC forum, I think) proved this not to be the case.  However, the degree of success was not mentioned.  I hope someone else will add to this conversation.

Does the type of germination for seed, epigeal vs hypogeal, correlate to timing for scaling?

Regarding Lilium germination modes, again, I don't think this has been researched.  However, if you take the example of L. monadelphum above, it does not match the easy success of scaling observed with L. martagon, even though they both possess delayed hypogeal germination.

On the other hand, when the odd L. martagon seed germinates immediate hypogeal instead of the normal delayed hypogeal, the resulting plant is always more vigorous and precocious, and I would expect that to influence scaling success, too.

Are there any places that actually have bulbs of the rarer species?

B&D, Brent and Becky's, The Lily Garden, The Lily Nook, Gardens North are all good reputable businesses.  Faraway Flowers, too, for more uncommon hybrids and some species.  Offerings vary greatly from year to year and fall to spring.  The owner has strong ties to England.  And Michael, you will have a fun time checking out all the other goodies at Gardens North, too.

I might also add that I am not a know-it-all here (just know-a-lot) and encourage other opinions.

[Lori S.]

Here's a list of sources of lily bulbs (and some seeds, I suppose) from the American Lily Society website:

http://www.lilies.org/06d_sources.html

P.S.  Gardens North has seeds of a few lilies, though not bulbs.  If you are looking for seed sources, the NARGS and SRGC seedexes typically list a lot of lilies (SRGC's list this year was phenomenal).  Also, private seed vendors, including, for example, the Czech collectors mentioned in other threads here, can also be excellent resources for the less commonly-grown lily species.

[Tony Willis]

Twin scaling seems to be going a bit too far but I always take some scales of any lily I receive at the time I get it,dormant or growing.A piece of basal plate is not necessary and I always break them off.

I put these in a polythene bag with a bit of damp vermiculite and leave them in the airing cupboard. Without fail bulbils develop in a few weeks/months and can then be potted up.If it is time for them to grow they produce a leaf and if it is winter they sit there until spring and then come up.

The only thing I do is if it is a winter potting I keep them cold but frost free,this is a personal fad and I have no evidence it makes any difference.

Time of year has proved irrelevant(I have never done Caucasian lilies) it works anytime when material is available.

[Michael]

Thank you all for great responses.  Wonderful information Rick.

Oh yes, I wasn't even thinking of twin scaling (gilding) the lilies.  I will be happy to get a few more out of the ones coming in this spring. 

At some point, I'll get around to serious bulb cuttage.  I think this summer it will be time to dice the Galanthus into little bits.

From seed I will be starting with superbum, as I have that from the Seed Ex already.  Anyone else get their seeds?

[Toole]

Lovely stuff Dave.

Very nice, Dave. How many lilies do you have?

Thanks guys.

Hoy
 
I'm a hopeless seed addict so i have few --a number are in pots along paths as i haven't the space for them in the garden proper ..... :   D

Here's a Lilium Aurelian hybrid i managed to acquire over the weekend.

L.wardii has four flowers on it currently however at the other end of the scale a number of the OT Hybrids are just starting Here is L.OT hybrid 'touching' --Huge yummy blooms .  



Cheers Dave.

[RickR]

Dave, nice stuff.  How hot is it down there at this time of year?

Sometimes I like the backs of lily flowers better than the fronts,
 especially with trumpets.

2n trumpet hybrid crosses:

        

        


Lilium "Mrs. R. O. Backhouse' and a Lilium martagon seedling

        


Lilium majoense and Lilium lancifolium 'Flore Pleno' (var. planescens)

        

[McDonough]

Simply gorgeous, and great photos too, really showing off the magnificent blooms from the back.  Is there a more elegant flower than lily blooms?  I don't think so.

[Lori S.]

Yes, beautiful!!  Thanks for brightening the winter, Dave and Rick.  

How does Lilium lancifolium var. planescens differ from the norm, Rick?  Opening so widely that the flower is flat, maybe?   

[RickR]

How does Lilium lancifolium var. planescens differ from the norm, Rick?  

Multiple petals.  Usually 2-3 times the normal six.  I've never checked to see if it is consistant.  But with the hose-in hose form, I think it will always be multiples of three.  And yes, it is flatter than the normal.  

There was a reason why I preserved the name planescens over Flore Pleno, besides it being what I obtained it as, but heck if I remember.    Another one of those "so long ago" things.  I have some old literature with the name, but a current googling of planescens, etc., tells me I should update it.

Lilium lancifolium 'Flore Pleno'

               

[Lori S.]

Oh, so it is double!  My eyes tricked me into thinking it had very long, very recurved petals. 

[RickR]

My eyes tricked me into thinking it had very long, very recurved petals. 

  The hose-in-hose effect...
Instead of petals being evenly spaced all over (like in a rose), these are in ranks.

[Hoy]

Most uplifting to see these, Rick and Dave! (And no lily beetles I presume )