Cremanthodium ID

[Todd Boland]

I posted this on the general form but really it belongs here.  I got this Cremanthodium as C. delavayi.  It took 4 years to bloom and boy what a cluster!  Anyone want to attempt to give it a name?

[Peter George]

How tall is the plant? Are the flowers 'nodding?' Do you have any other photos? Maybe one closeup of the flower?

[Todd Boland]

The plant is a little over 2 feet tall.  They are not nodding...rather they are outward facing.  I've grown three species from seeds but the tags got lost.  The others have yet to bloom.  The seeds were ellisiae, delavayi and arnicoides...yet this one does not seem to match either of them.

[Peter George]

I'd guess that the plant is C. ellisiae, but Chris Chadwell is here in MA this weekend, and will be staying with Mark McDonough over the weekend, and he certainly can identify it. Hopefully Mark gets on the Forum tonight or tomorrow.

[McDonough]

It might help to compare the leaves and the line drawing of said "Cremanthodium delevayi":

Line drawing of Cremanthodium delavayi (3-5):
http://www.plants.csdb.cn/eflora/Photo/ORGFLORA/77%282%29-151.jpg

Line drawing of Cremanthodium arnicoides (6-8):
http://www.plants.csdb.cn/eflora/Photo/ORGFLORA/77%282%29-158.jpg



Other Cremanthodium

Red Cremanthodium
http://flower.onego.ru/anpine/en_2051.jpg

Pink Cremanthodium rhodocephalum (Tibet)
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=8276

Cremanthodium ellisii (Tibet, 5150 m)
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=17367
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=17190

Cremanthodium decaisnei (Tibet, 5180 m)
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=17160

[Peter George]

Chris Chadwell has viewed your photographs and isn't certain which one it is, if it's actually a Cremanthodium. Do you happen to recall the source of the seed? It may be easier for him to identify it if he knew from whence it came.

[McDonough]

Chris Chadwell has viewed your photographs and isn't certain which one it is, if it's actually a Cremanthodium. Do you happen to recall the source of the seed? It may be easier for him to identify it if he knew from whence it came.

My guess is that the plant is not a Cremanthodium; maybe a Helianthus species?.  When Chris, his son Matthew, and I visited the Kris Fenderson garden, we saw a rather similar looking "sunflower" that Kris said came to him as a Cremanthodium but all agreed it clearly was not... his plant was taller, about 3' or more.

The reason I posted a number of photo and drawings links of Cremanthodium was to give an idea about what members of this genus look like; with the nodding disposition to the flowers a unifying characteristic.

[Todd Boland]

It is most certainly a Cremanthodium...the cauline leaves clasp the stem...never seen a Helianthus do that!  The basal leaves looks much like ellisiae.  The seeds came from the Reykjavik BG.

[McDonough]

It is most certainly a Cremanthodium...the cauline leaves clasp the stem...never seen a Helianthus do that!  The basal leaves looks much like ellisiae.  The seeds came from the Reykjavik BG.

Can we see a photo or two of the foliage and the whole plant?  The plant doesn't look much like the two photo links I posted above, from Harry Jans' entries for Cremanthodium ellisii (note spelling) taken in Tibet.

Link to a SRGC photo of Cremanthodium ellisii:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/pport/Cremell.html

More Cremanthodium ellisii links:
http://www.flowersofindia.in/catalog/slides/Himalayan%20Mini%20Sunflower.html
http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Pakistan-Karakorum/10569418_yLmqW/28/734235104_qGvsS#734235104_qGvsS
http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Pakistan-Karakorum/10569418_yLmqW/28/734235104_qGvsS#734235144_YGgXk
http://www.kew.org/news/kew-blogs/alpine-rock-garden/katie-visits-munichs-alpengarten.htm

[Chris Chadwell]

The images do seem to match a Cremanthodium.  Sorry but Cremanthodium is a difficult genus identification-wise. Some species used to be included within Ligularia and Senecio......

The images do not match any Himalayan species I am familiar with, though I have not seen all the Eastern Himalayan ones in flower.  It comes closest to Cremanthodium arnicoides.

Given that the seed arrived as Cremanthodium delavayii, along with its general appearance, my current thinking is that it might be a species from SW China.  Does anyone have a copy of HIMALAYAN PLANTS ILLUSTRATED by Toshio Yoshida?  Can they check the illustrations of Cremanthodiums there - this massive book, includes SW China (I separate the Himalaya from SW China) to see if anything looks similar.  I could then comment further.

Did the seed arrive with a reference or collection number?  Who assigned the original name Cremanthodium delavayii? Where did the botanic garden in Iceland get the original seed from?  If it was from genuine wild provenance, there should be collector's initials and number - then the person/expedition which collected it in China (or wherever) could be contacted, as they may have an update as to identification.

The images of Cremanthodium ellisii posted most recently by Mark do match my understanding of the species in the W.Himalaya incl. the SRGC one which was raised from Chadwell & McKelvie seed but those from Hary Jans do not but they could be a Tibetan (i.e. rain-shadow) extreme-elevation, scree-dwelling variant?

[McDonough]

Welcome back Chris (to this side of the virtual pond, that is) glad to see you here and learn of your insights on Cremanthodium.  To add further clues, I almost forgot about my copy of Flowers of the Himalaya by Oleg Polunin and Adam Stainton.  In fair use provisions, I scanned a couple pertinent images of various Cremanthodium, and post them hear.  Regarding the possibility of the subject plant of C. ellisii, this is a single flowered species (one flower per stem), as can be seen in the good photo.  The reason I asked Todd to see the foliage, it seems that Cremanthodiums have bold and distinctive foliage, so seeing a photo of the foliage would certainly help.




Three more species, with the hallmark nodding flowers, C. nepalense, C. oblongatum, and C. reniforme.




Lastly, C. arnicoides, with a spike of flowers, perhaps the closest in appearance to Todd's plant, but I'm still not deliberating on it until we see the foliage and more details.



Chris, you wouldn't like the heat here today (and nearly everyday this July so far), 94 degrees was the high (34 C).  Are there various Cremanthodium species that you anticipate collecting in your seed collecting trip this year to the Himalaya? if anyone is interested in getting seeds of the real McCoys, having your NARGS Chapter buy a share of Chris' upcoming expedition seed sounds like a worthwhile adventure, or perhaps buy a share yourself, or "share a share" with a friend or two.

[Peter George]

Hot is was! Mark, since we're discussing Cremanthodiums, I found out what that huge leafed plant I had in the small garden in front of my porch actually is. I gave one seedling to a neighbor gardener, and she's grown it out. It's about 5 feet tall, and is a rather attractive Inula. Chris has seen it, and perhaps he can recall exactly which one. But it IS garden worthy, but not ROCK garden worthy.

[McDonough]

Hot is was! Mark, since we're discussing Cremanthodiums, I found out what that huge leafed plant I had in the small garden in front of my porch actually is. I gave one seedling to a neighbor gardener, and she's grown it out. It's about 5 feet tall, and is a rather attractive Inula. Chris has seen it, and perhaps he can recall exactly which one. But it IS garden worthy, but not ROCK garden worthy.

Ah ha, I was wondering what that monster was!  Several attractive Inula species are pictured in Flowers of the Himalaya, all but one are smaller plants, Inula racemosa is the only tall one listed, growing to 1.75 m (over 5'), although there's no illustration of it in the book.  Here's a web link to a photo said to be Inula racemosa:
http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/i/inrson.php
...and an image from Jelitto:
http://www.jelitto.com/english/IA074.x.htm

[Chris Chadwell]

During my Fall Expedition to W.Tibet/ NW Himalaya, I expect to gather seed of Cremanthodium ellisii (boasting a delightful scent) from wet ledges growing with Meconopsis aculeata and probably miniature Cremanthodium decaisnei.  There is a possibility of locating Cremanthodium arnicoides, more typically found in the E.Himalaya and even Cremanthodium nanum - which inhabits screes up to 5700m!

This is my second ever post.  Once my eldest son (who acts as my IT consultant, since I find embracing modern technology a painful experience) shows me how to attach pictures, I intend to post images of an Inula growing in the garden of Kris Fenderson in NH (author of A SYNOPTIC GUIDE TO THE GENUS PRIMULA), which arrived as Cremanthodium arnicoides - Mark McDonough had generously driven me to an open day there whilst hosting me earlier this month.

I also have an image of what may prove to be the same plant, grown by a Cremanthodium enthusiast in Alaska, which again arrived from a seed exchange as Cremanthodium arnicoides.  It is always much easier to say what something is not, rather than what it actually is.  Just come across a web-site which lists 66 Cremanthodiums from China! So plenty of names to check identification-wise but with the bonus of more to experiment with in our gardens......

l 

[Todd Boland]

Sorry I can't answer any of the questions regarding source.  I grew four species of Cremanthodium....C. arnicoides, ellisi, helianthus and delavayi.  I am thinking it is allied to arnicoides.  Here are the rather slug-eaten leaves.