Clematis

[ncole]

Thanks Lori, this is from Plants Delights and is very tiny so I probably will have to wait. 

[RickR]

First bloom, Clematis ochroleuca, from seed.  Yes, the foliage is a bit chlorotic, due to my inattentive care.  It's funny because from the NARGS seed ex, I thought I had received seed of the same species collected in Japan, and it is not at all alike.  When I checked my label (and my 2009 records), this second species was really C. ochotensis.  I am a staunch advocate of meticulous record keeping, and this is why!

          Clematis ochroleuca

            

                                  

          Clematis ochotensis seed collected, Mt. Tokachi, Japan.

              

[ncole]

Well my 'Lake Baikal' died almost immediately.  I am wondering if I should have left it in its' pot for a while longer.

[Hoy]

Rick, you have some very interesting clematis species! I have tried several here but they are hard to grow big as slugs seem to like the young growth very much >

[Lori S.]

Interesting species, Rick.

Clematis season is starting here too...
Clematis alpina 'Constance':
 

[Lori S.]

A Clematis alpina seedling, ex. 'Pamela Jackman', in nannyberry (Viburnum lentago); this one is quite like the parent:


Another seedling but single this time -  same parent - in Dasiphora fruticosa (which will probably get drug down and have to be rescued soon):

[Lori S.]

What I grew as C. pierotii has survived (with leaves dusted with pollen)... although, assuming it is what it was claimed to be, apparently the preferred name is C. brevicaudata:


http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200007591

If it survives through time, it will have to fight for dominance of the wayfaring tree it's under with a 'Markham's Pink', which has an advantage of several years growing time.

[Hoy]

I would choose the Clematis for the Dasiphora, Lori!
Although seedlings of alpina and other clematises regularly pop up they seldom grow to flowering age - nice breakfast stuff for slugs and snails.
The brevicaudata leaves didn't look much like the leaves of mature plants. Sure the name is right? (I don't know the species, I looked it up!)

[Lori S.]

I would choose the Clematis for the Dasiphora, Lori!

There are so many Clematis alpina seedlings around here that I don't have to pick one over the other!  I have about a dozen potted up right now to give away!

[Lori S.]

A couple more...
Clematis alpina 'Willy' (with a seedling ex. Pamela Jackman', and by itself) and Clematis 'Markham's Pink' in a wayfaring tree (Viburnum lentago):
   

Here is more of the variation among 'Pamela Jackman' seedlings (demonstrating why only clones, not seeds, can be guaranteed to represent the cultivar):
 

And more variation yet among these self-sown Clematis alpina...
 

The brevicaudata leaves didn't look much like the leaves of mature plants. Sure the name is right? (I don't know the species, I looked it up!)

No, I'm not sure at all - I thought perhaps the differences could be due to immature leaves on my plant (which has just emerged/leafed out), but I don't know.

[Lori S.]

When I checked my label (and my 2009 records), this second species was really C. ochotensis.  I am a staunch advocate of meticulous record keeping, and this is why!

Rick, despite what seems like an authentic provenance, I'm wondering if that is really C. ochotensis... ?  The leaves look more like C. alpina... 
I realize that C. ochotensis has been classified as a ssp. of alpina but it seems that the photos of it show 3 more-or-less entire leaves, rather than highly divided ones... ? 

[RickR]

I see what you mean, Lori.  Though I did not find a written description of the foliage, I did find this one pic, out of the soooo many on the web, taken at the University of Helsinki botanic garden: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Clematis_ochotensis_Ohotank%C3%A4rh%C3%B6_Amurklematis_C_DSC03803.JPG

Seed came from the 2008-09 NARGS seed ex #4170 and I have the donor number (121), but that year was the first year I did not get a hard copy of the seed list.  I saved the seed list on my pc, but apparently neglected to keep a copy of the donor list.  And the NARGS website archives does not keep donor lists.  (Why is that?)  So I don't know who 121 is.

At any rate, according to the description given by the donor, the flower is supposed to be "black".  My plant is too young to flower yet, and I suppose if the flower is "black" it could be ochotensis?  (Are there "black" C. alpina?)  Or maybe the flower color was the only  identifying characteristic used when the seed was collected, and therefore not correctly identified?  I don't know.  And I know far less than you would regarding this.

[Lori S.]

And I know far less than you would regarding this.

Errr, no, not at all.  I don't know much about clematis -  I was looking up this species the other night for other reasons, and did not see many examples with strongly-divided foliage like your plant, so it is just a guess on my part.  The Wiki entry for this species does look more-or-less like yours, though. 

There does seem to be some dark cultivars of C. alpina and C. macropetala but I don't know about "black". 

Hmm, as I was looking on one of my garden maps for something else, I came across C. ochotensis... I was given a seedling, if I recall correctly.  I'll have to see if it survived and what it looks like...

Any clematis experts out there?

[Hoy]

I am no expert at all but according to C. Grey-Wilson in his book "Clematis the genus" ochotensis "leaves are very similar to alpina but often a more yellow-green". He continues "-with broader sepals 12-24mm as opposed to 10-15mm (in alpina). In addition the staminodes are quite different: in ochotensis they are spatula-shaped up to 20mm long but not more than 3mm wide, whereas in alpina they are pronouncedly spoonshaped not more than 15mm long but about 6mm wide at the widest. The flower colour ranges from bright indigo blue to violet-blue or purple (rarely white) . . "

[Lori S.]

Well, that is excellent news!  Thanks, Trond.  Sorry to cause your clematis a brief identity crisis, Rick!