Eriogonum ID?

[Hugh MacMillan]

You haven't started barcoding the plants yet to confirm the species? This is not a joke, as you may think!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_barcoding

Interesting article - a glimpse to the future!  On the other hand, it's nice to see all the folks on this thread running to their references and honing up on their skills!

[Weiser]

As Hugh pointed out we dissected a lot of flowers in the class peering through loupes and hand lenses. Of course it always helped to have a steady hand and a botanist setting beside you as a reference source.

 

[McDonough]

What image is being referred to below?  Is it the drawing at eFlora of BC or ... ?

Dr. Reveal's response:
"Jeanne's image of Eriogonum ovalifolium var. nivale is correct; she is showing the flower attached directly onto the pedicel.

He is referring to the drawing in eFlora of BC.

Rewritten (my interpretation of what was the stipe and what was the pedicel was backwards):  In that one photo of E. umbellatum var. subaridum that Dr. Reveal had a URL for, looking into the flower head, viewing the flower on the right at 3 o'clock, you can detect a very subtle line or joint below the flower, and a little bit further down the narrow stipe another slightly darker line indicating the joint with the pedicel.  In another link by Dr. Reveal, one can see pedicels that are left behind after the flowers with their stipes shed.  Since the stipe and pedicel are inline and continuous, it can be hard to discern if a stipe is present; so when when looking at drawings that show a floret, one doesn't really know if one is seeing a stipe, a pedicel, or a stipe-pedicel combination, because it all looks basically the same unless examined very closely.

[McDonough]

I personally carry a 10x. 14x, and 20x lens when in the field - it helps to have the ability to see these smaller features.  We were also advised to bring a dissecting needle or sharp blade for taking apart the flower heads -

I can envision the Eriogonum Posse, Hugh at the head, donning a leather holster with gleaming 10x-20x caliber lenses, dissecting needles, and a bar-coder45, and a bottle of scotch, wrangling wild buckwheat IDs   I'd like to get some of this gear myself and come out for the next Eriogonum meeting in CA.

[Lori S.]

Great!  Thanks for the explanation!

MMcD edit:  Photo removed as I had misinterpreted and misled Lori on the stipe and pedicel relationship.  See further in this topic for an annotated photo showing the stipe and pedicel relationship.

[McDonough]

Great!  Thanks for the explanation!

So, to check if I understand what has been said, is the annotation that I added to Dr. Reveal's photo (below) correct?

Yes!  I believe so.  No, my interpretation was backwards, so it is the other way around,
see:  http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=493.msg5099#msg5099

Don't you wish that the floras would show a diagnostic photo or drawing for each genus, to helps its users to understand the important criteria for each genus; to help them understand terms used in the keys.

[Lori S.]

Okay, very interesting and thanks again!  (Reminds me of the difference between Campanula and Adenophora...)

Don't you wish that the floras would show a diagnostic photo or drawing for each genus, to helps its users to understand the important criteria for each genus; to help them understand terms used in the keys.

That would be a terrific help!

[Hugh MacMillan]

I can envision the Eriogonum Posse, Hugh at the head, donning a leather holster with gleaming 10x-20x caliber lenses, dissecting needles, and a bar-coder45, and a bottle of scotch, wrangling wild buckwheat IDs   I'd like to get some of this gear myself and come out for the next Eriogonum meeting in CA.

Funny Mark - I have actually been compared to Billy the Kid so you may have me on the wrong side of the Eriogonum Law.

Let me pipe in again regarding the stipe issue - in some cases it is very easy to see that a stipe exists and in others it is so subtle as to be barely evident so don't feel like the Lone Ranger Lori. 

In the classroom and in the ID book we did indeed have a few diagnostic drawings.

It has been my intent since Reno to supply a set of diagnostic drawings on the Eriogonum Web site.  I will probably be the one to do the drawings so that there is continuity (rather than a collection of disparate drawings).  My vision is to start at the root and proceed up to the flower - if I can code it properly I would like to have a 'mouse over' effect to show some of the alternatives in a given structure (for example, different root types).

Gary Monroe, one of the main contributors of images of Eriogonum on Calflora, in a recent correspondence to me, said that he will be adding photos with some morphological features highlighted (and annotated?). 

[Hoy]

Sorry to interupt you, but isn't it the other way round? I mean Lori's picture with the writings.
I have thought that the pedicel is the stem that connect the whole flower to the rest of the plant (and no part of the flower itself), and that the stipe in flowering plants often is what connect the ovary to the rest of the flower and therefore a part of the flower tissue! (And you will find it inside the perianth)

[Hoy]

I can envision the Eriogonum Posse, Hugh at the head, donning a leather holster with gleaming 10x-20x caliber lenses, dissecting needles, and a bar-coder45, and a bottle of scotch, wrangling wild buckwheat IDs   I'd like to get some of this gear myself and come out for the next Eriogonum meeting in CA.

if this is the gear and buckwheat is the purpose I hope to be invited!

[Weiser]

Gary Monroe, one of the main contributors of images of Eriogonum on Calflora, in a recent correspondence to me, said that he will be adding photos with some morphological features highlighted (and annotated?).

I count Gary as a personal friend we often take botanizing hikes together with the Nevada Native Plant  Society when he is available. He is a major contributor of photos covering all genus to Calflora, USDA Plants Database and actively involved with the Jepson Manual. Gary does his best to positively identify and confirm all of his shots.  I have seen Gary's photos depicting what to look for when locating a stipe on Eriogonums. He had me take a look to see if I thought they showed the features clearly. They are very good.

Here is a shot of Gary at 9700' on Slide Mountain taking a photo of Eriogonum  rosense. 
.

[Hugh MacMillan]

I can envision the Eriogonum Posse, Hugh at the head, donning a leather holster with gleaming 10x-20x caliber lenses, dissecting needles, and a bar-coder45, and a bottle of scotch, wrangling wild buckwheat IDs   I'd like to get some of this gear myself and come out for the next Eriogonum meeting in CA.

if this is the gear and buckwheat is the purpose I hope to be invited!

Damn right you're invited!  Have gear, will travel...

[Hugh MacMillan]

Sorry to interupt you, but isn't it the other way round? I mean Lori's picture with the writings.
I have thought that the pedicel is the stem that connect the whole flower to the rest of the plant (and no part of the flower itself), and that the stipe in flowering plants often is what connect the ovary to the rest of the flower and therefore a part of the flower tissue! (And you will find it inside the perianth)

Sorry if there was confusion.  Try this definition of stipe;
stipe: Here defined as an elongated extension of the receptacle positioned between the pedicel and the base of the short perianth-tube. The stipe is round in cross-section and more or less uniformly thickened for its entire length. The stipe is a diagnostic feature of Eriogonum subg. Eriogonum and subg. Oligigonium. A decidedly, albeit slightly, winged stipe is seen in two species of subg. Eucycla, E. crocatum and E. saxatile. This feature is otherwise absent from Polygonaceae. In a few species of subg. Oligigonium (e.g., E. lobbii) the stipe can be nearly obsolete, especially in high elevation populations. 
Yes, it is inside the perianth and yes, your description of the pedicle is correct.

As a point of reference and really good reading for eriogonites (eriogophyles?) go to the Eriogonum website to see an excellent 5 part treatise by Jim Reveal on morphological features of Eriogonum (starting with the Feb. 2009 issue).  Also, there is a very complete glossary on the website (stipe definition above taken from this glossary).

To quote the song by Michael Stipe (yes, Stipe) 'everybody hurts.. some time'.

[McDonough]

My apologies to everyone, sometimes I can be such a dufus: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Dufus

I have misinterpreted the whole stipe vs. pedicel thing again, but I think maybe it has finally sunk in.  I have reread Dr. Reveal's explanation and photo links for like the 8th time, and I concur with Trond, and Hugh, that I have it backwards.

So, I marked up another copy of Dr. Reveal's photo of E. umbellatum var. subaridum, identifying the stipe and pedicel.  I have a 50/50 chance of getting it right this time around .  Hugh and John, care to comment on the photo, did I get the flower part identifications right?  If so, we can go back and fix previous misinterpretations, and sorry Lori for misleading you too.

I would really like to find a simple drawing, and enlarged view of eriogonum flowers, to point out and name the various parts; Hugh your idea of creating such drawings and making them available would be a fantastic aid towards Eriogonum keying and identification.  I went through all of the Eriogonum Society newsletters, but didn't really find anything about the "stipes" but I was skimming through quickly and may have missed it, good stuff in those newsletters by the way:
http://eriogonum.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:newsletters&catid=35:documents&Itemid=71

[Weiser]

Mark
Yes you have it right. The stipe is usually the same diameter as the pedicel with the faint demarcation line. In some species the stipe is almost non existent, as Hugh pointed out. The presence of a stipe or the absence is one of the first keys that help lead you through the subgenera classifications. The length of the structure can help break the two subgenera in which it exists further. Or it's absence will send you off chasing down a winding path though the other five subgenera.