Seed starting chronicles 2013

[cohan]

That's lots of pots, Claire! I need to do something similar to get caught up..

Everwild is new to me, looks like fun to go through

[RickR]

Claire, Good for you!
For various reasons, most of us experience an overall germination rate of around 50% with our endeavors of species previously tried and untried.  That is, around half of the species planted have no germination at all (for the first season, at least).  Now doesn't that make you feel better, that you will only have to deal with 175 pots? 

I found it interesting in the eranthis thread on the SRGC forum, that some Eranthis sp.  have two seed leaves, and some just one.  http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9951.msg265963#msg265963
Eranthis (Shibateranthis) pinnatifida should only have one.

We've been stuck at 40 degrees most days and nights for almost a month now, so I was surprised to see things starting up already.

Most of those you mention are listed as warm germinators.  Obviously, it has not been 40F all winter for you, but it's a testament to nature's diversity and adaptability.


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When I bought some bags of Fafard 52 mix (which is basically ground bark), I also got some Metro 360 (coir) to play with.  This ground coir is finer than what I envisioned, and it holds a lot more water than I expected, too.  GreenRoofer, I will be interested to see (in the future) if you formulate any preference, good or bad, with the coco peat.  I see it as the same as the Metro 360 I have.

[GreenRoofer]

Well, with the Coco peat, my frame of reference is peat moss, which I love and hate. The coco peat isn't hydrophobic when wet, which I REALLY like. I've read the pH is more neutral so that's good. My soil mix for alpines so far has been -

80% equal parts sand, pea gravel, perlite, fuller's earth (oil sorb)

20% half and half coffee grinds and peat moss

The coffee grinds seemed sustainable to me, but after a month they stop draining. The peat moss might be making the mix acidic, so I added a little liquid iron to my watering. I've only got two planters with my 'desert soil' mix, which is half and half sand/gravel and a few handfuls of coco peat. I've never worked with anything this lean. I'm very excited! The only thing is, it's way too heavy, at least 80 lbs. I wish I had added a bunch of perlite. I don't like the way perlite floats up to the top, it draws my eye and looks cheap to me. But my back appreciates it. 

[Lori S.]

We've been stuck at 40 degrees most days and nights for almost a month now, so I was surprised to see things starting up already.

Most of those you mention are listed as warm germinators.  Obviously, it has not been 40F all winter for you, but it's a testament to nature's diversity and adaptability.

Rightly or wrongly (maybe someone can tell me which; in any case, I'll pull out the books and refresh my memory)... I've never taken Deno's results completely literally.  I've always assumed that "warm germinators" were just those that don't need fluctuating temperatures to break down germination inhibitors, not that they actually need warm temperatures to germinate... ?
Similarly, I've always assumed that the details of Deno's practices (e.g. 3 month temperature periods) were made constant for the purposes of experimental integrity (i.e. for consistent comparison with the control sets).   For example, it may be that some species actually need that long a chilling period, but that many don't and will germinate when once brought out to warm temperature after a shorter period...  ??

Wow, sounds like a great start for a lot of cool things, Claire!

[Hoy]

I don't bother neither with different germination regimes nor soil mixtures. I usually make  a mixture of some ordinary garden soil, sand, grit, perlite and peat.  I place almost all the pots outside and let them experience the natural weather and usually have very good germination. If they start germinating during the winter months they are brought inside. The problem starts later when the seedlings can be damaged by slugs and other critters as I have to place them outside again due to lack of space inside.

Here are 4 pots (of about 20) with seedlings brought inside. Two with Helleborus, one with Trillium and one with Erythronium. They've been outside since last winter till germination started in January.

   

[cohan]

Lori- your comments put me in mind of Alplains germinations guidelines where each species that needs cold stratification is given a specific number of weeks- 4, 8, 12  etc..

[Lori S.]

I don't bother neither with different germination regimes...  I place almost all the pots outside and let them experience the natural weather and usually have very good germination.

So you are actually cold stratifying the seeds but you are letting nature do it for you... the perfect solution.  
I would do this too (used to do a lot of it) but it is not until late in spring that the seeds sprout outdoors here under natural conditions.  By stratifying indoors, I can get a few months of indoor growing, and have reasonably-sized seedlings to plant outdoors in the same season... at least that's how I rationalize it.  Being able to stratify seeds outdoors and yet get germination early (i.e. during what is still the depths of winter here) is definitely an advantage of living in those zone 7-8-ish maritime climate areas!

[deesen]

I don't bother neither with different germination regimes nor soil mixtures. I usually make  a mixture of some ordinary garden soil, sand, grit, perlite and peat.  I place almost all the pots outside and let them experience the natural weather and usually have very good germination. If they start germinating during the winter months they are brought inside. The problem starts later when the seedlings can be damaged by slugs and other critters as I have to place them outside again due to lack of space inside.

Here are 4 pots (of about 20) with seedlings brought inside. Two with Helleborus, one with Trillium and one with Erythronium. They've been outside since last winter till germination started in January.

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Same regime, same problem, different mix.

[RickR]

Similarly, I've always assumed that the details of Deno's practices (e.g. 3 month temperature periods) were made constant for the purposes of experimental integrity (i.e. for consistent comparison with the control sets).   For example, it may be that some species actually need that long a chilling period, but that many don't and will germinate when once brought out to warm temperature after a shorter period...  ??

You're absolute right here. And Dr. Deno does explain in detail.

Rightly or wrongly ... I've always assumed that "warm germinators" were just those that don't need fluctuating temperatures to break down germination inhibitors, not that they actually need warm temperatures to germinate... ?

I'd really like to explore this subject,  so  I started a new thread:
Warm germinators and Cool germinators

[Cockcroft]

Germination update:
Sown in January, 2012 and up this week:
  Fritillaria rhodocanakis ssp. argolica
  Iris sp. (AGS -- Juno type, white)
  Paeonia veitchii
Sown this winter and up this week:
  Arabis blepharophylla                             Balsamorhiza incana
  Calochortus weedii var. vestus                Centaurium venustum (Zeltnera venusta)
  Cortusa matthioli 'Alba'                           Incarvillea compacta
  Meconopsis "napaulensis" (garden hybrid)  Nepeta laevigata
  Phyteuma scheuchzeri                           Primula orbicularis
  Primula polyneura                                  Primula waltonii
  Rhodiola heterodonta                             Silene californica
  Stenotus stenophyllus
  Lots of Meconopsis baileyi and its hybrids

[cohan]

I have a number of things to sow, some of which I'm finding recommendations for several weeks of warm before cold treatment- not things I'd think of as warm/cold/warm germinators, such as spring ripened woodland seeds but things mentioned for example in the Ontario Rock Garden germination database as fall ripe seed, wanting a few weeks warm before cold-- eg:
Androscae carnea ssp halleri- ORG site says 6 weeks warm then 6 weeks cold
the Kootenay guide says  2-4 weeks warm, 4-6 weeks cold

Kristl says requires cold treatment, but I didn't get the seed from her, so I don't know whether that's her full recommendations...
Any thoughts? Does it need the warm before cold? I just got the seed and if I keep it at warm for too long I could be running short on outdoor stratification time..

A couple more Bupleurum stellatum- ORG says warm or cycling
Kootenay says 2-4wks warm, 4-6 cold

Campanula cenisia- ORG says warm
Kootenay says 2-4 wrm, 4-6 cold

Saponaria lutea- ORG says 6 weeks warm, 6 cold
Kootenay says 2-4wrm 4-6 cold

Does anyone generally give things a few weeks warm before cold? I give a few days usually to absorb moisture, then outside for stratifying.. At this point, we will surely have many weeks yet with freezing temps much of the time, I could probably give things a couple of weeks warm indoors before out, but in case of an early spring, I don't think I would take a chance on long enough stratifying if I kept them in for 6 weeks...

[Gene Mirro]

I give cold germinators at least two weeks at 60F or above.  I figure they need some warm time to imbibe (absorb) moisture.  The surface tension of cold water is very high.  But I've never done comparison studies to determine what the optimum warm time is.  According to Deno, if you give cold germinators too much warm time (like 3 months) they die.

On the other hand, I know that some seeds will absorb moisture just fine at fridge temp (40F).  I had a batch of Russell lupines germinate in 5 days in the fridge without any warm period.  Some poppies will germinate very cold.

Since just about everything responds well to the two weeks of warmth, I have standardized on that for cold germinators.  Note that I am not talking about seeds with complex requirements, like lilies with delayed hypogeal germination.

[cohan]

I have put things requiring cold strat directly outside other years in late winter/early spring (only a day or few of warm at most), with good results on some, but not all.. though those that did not germinate, I generally assumed the cold period was too short if it was late in the year, but who knows...
I put out a bunch a week or so back also, seed from Kristl, and her instructions for cold strat do not mention a warm period (other than, as Gene mentioned, warm/cold/wrm germinators etc, different issue). They'll have plenty of up and down at this time of year- I put them in a spot that is sunny part of the day, and we have had days up to 10C, other days forecast to be well below freezing, with nights considerably colder still..

[RickR]

A few pics from last spring that I neglected to add to our growing archive:

     Dietes bicolor


     Patrinia villosa


     Corydalis ochroleuca - volunteer seedlings in the garden, where an old plant finally died

[McDonough]

Had to look up Dietes as I wasn't familiar with it; oh yes, I know it under the alternate name Moraea.

Rick, are you overwintering the Dietes plants indoors, I see that it is rated for zones 8-11, thus a tender plant. Very attractive from photos I've seen. 

I don't think one has to try too hard with Corydalis ochroleuca, seems like this one, along with C. lutea, looks towards world domination. Both might be good candidates for green roof plants, as they'll grow most anywhere.  I have C. ochroleuca seeding into my stone/gravel "drip strip" around the house, a 2' wide strip around my house corresponding to the roof overhang. The area gets blazing hot in full sun, the light color walls and foundation reflecting light and heat, the plants never get watered unless blowing rain comes from the right direction. Normally I yank out ochroleuca plants whenever I see them, while the foliage is attractive, the plant spreads too much by seed, and I don't care much for the long wands of pale flowers.  But I usually neglect those growing in the barren drip strip (because I'm lazy), and they sail through heat and drought without any problem.