How would you like the new nargs.org web site to look?

[David Sellars]

I agree with Daniel - content is the most important aspect. So the website should be set up to encourage contributions from NARGS members, to tap into our distributed expertise.  One idea would be to have regional sections with members contributing with local information on events, places to visit, hikes, gardens etc.  With a Content Management System any member should be able to contribute.  This type of information could be in A Members Only area to reinforce the website as one of the benefits of NARGS membership.

On the issue of cost effectiveness, the Alpine Garden Club of British Columbia recently took the plunge to upgrade our website with a Content Management System. For Tim and Cliff we even included a video on the Home page!

http://www.agc-bc.ca/home

NARGS is 10 times the size of our British Columbia club (in terms of membership numbers) and an expenditure of $30,000 does not seem out of line given what we were prepared to pay. I see this type of cost as an investment in infrastructure. An infrastructure investment, whether a bridge, a port or an upgraded website, lasts a long time ( much longer than 5 years)  and if built with quality materials, will need only minor costs for future maintenance.  There has to be reasons for rock gardeners to belong to NARGS and an effective website which can act as a "meeting place'  for the far-flung NARGS membership, can go a long way to providing some glue for the organization.

[McGregor]

Sorry guys I've just written a really thought through message about content and managed to hit the wrong key as I was about to send it and lost the lot - really pisses me off. I'll try and manage to resurrect bits of it from my memory and this time I'm going to keep posting it as I go, so if the message appears unfinished it is because it is unfinished

[McGregor]

I'm really interested with the ideas that Cliff, and Tim, and David have been posting about content and I want to try and make a few comments here after Daniel's rather startling quote

We will need only to propose our ideas to the Web Site Content Editor, Malcolm McGregor, to initiate their incorporation to the web site.

Interesting to read how effective I'm going to be - no promises except I'll do my best guys!

============================

Our website has to carry all sorts of functions

SHOPFRONT
MESSAGE BOARD
NEWSPAPER
REFERENCE LIBRARY
COFFEE SHOP
SEED CATALOG
PHOTO ART GALLERY

And each of these require a different style because they have different needs.

Some stay around for years (Reference Library stuff), some are come and go, hour-by-hour,minute-by-minute (Coffee Shop and Message boards). I terms of our web presence the ones that change are the ones that should feature upfront because that means that every time someone visits the site there is a sense that things are happening because there is something new - just like the forum.

As a starting point we already have a lot of stuff that we have to find new homes for - might be useful to think of what we are doing as moving house - we're going to have a whole new place to put our stuff and it makes sense to try and put the stuff we use most in the most prominent places. Some stuff (like family documents, insurance policies and the like) are important and we mustn't lose them but we don't keep them on the kitchen table - well we might but we know it's probably not the best place. So perhaps we want big boxes on the frontpage for the stuff we use all the time and smaller boxes for the stuff we really only look at very occasionally - for example, when did you last look at the By-Laws on the website? They're there, and they should be, but you only want to look at them very occasionally if at all. Perhaps they only need to be tucked away behind the settee (the equivalent might be an item on a pull-down menu or off a admin page)

Anyway some areas of content are necessary and already functioning. So I'm going to try and list them as a starter and hope people pick it up from there. Some items may appear in more than one place - no problem.

FORUM
on the frontpage we might have
- actvie threads
- number online
- plant of the day

BULLETIN BOARD
- latest new items
- old news archive

MEMBERSHIP RENEWAL etc
- benefits etc
- new members
- renewals

QUARTERLY (access issues to address)
- latest issue
- recent issues
- archive
other things might include
- a featured article
- contributor profiles

MEETINGS
- calendar
- next meeting of NARGS
- upcoming chapter meetings

REGIONAL
- message boards etc
- fieldtrips etc

CHAPTERS
- chapter meetings
- newsletters

BOOKS
- Book of the Month
- libeary and other reviews

SEEDEX
- seedlists
- news
- applications

DEVELOPMENTS & INITIATIVES

DONATIONS
- funds
- benefits
-projects funded etc

WIKI - don't know how this fits

NARGS STUFF
- Board & AdCom - names, profiles, timescales
- Constitution and Bye-Laws
- Annual Meeting
- Agendas
- Minutes

This is not meant to be exhaustive and stuff can be cross-referenced so an item might be accessed through two different content areas. But maybe it starts to make sense of what we have at the moment.

And then there are always FUNCTIONS such as

PAYMENT SYSTEMS
&
SITE MANAGEMENT

But then you could look at the whole thing from another angle and both could be aspects of the CONTENTS - like turning the whole thing through 90 degrees.

PLANTS
- surveys of different groups of plants
- knowledge about how to grow them
- information on where to get them
- seed exchange to get them

PLACES
- places we might visit
- guides to places of interest
- meetings to visit them

PEOPLE
- gardeners
- explorers
- merchants
- NARGS people
- authors

So there are alternatives. It might be more useful to think of content as an array of possibilities and the contents headings as different ways to pick out linked sets of things. It's a bit like having a toy box full of stuff and emptying it all out on the floor. What we need are different ways of structuring what is there - sorting it into sets of Lego, sets of soldiers, packs of cards, dolls clothes, toy animals and so on.

Over to you -
and don't forget

We will need only to propose our ideas to the Web Site Content Editor, Malcolm McGregor, to initiate their incorporation to the web site.

and pigs might fly !!!

Yes, they might ... now let's look at that proposal ...... what would we need to do ......

[Tim Ingram]

It's quite hard to take on board a whole website like this because different people tend to concentrate on different aspects of it - for example on SRGC there is an avid Galanthus section which gets into gear in the autumn and has a huge following right through the winter. Crocus has a similar select clientele. Gardeners tend to become specialists (as well as retaining a general fascination with plants) as they learn more.

As personal example I have an entire run of the AGS Bulletin, bought before it was available on CD, and find the past experiences of gardeners as fascinating as the present. I am greatly looking forward to being able to look at the NARGS archive as well as SRGC as these are put online. I have been writing regular short essays based on writings in the AGS Bulletin on the AGS website, and an historical aspect to the websites like this seems really valuable. Archives are all very well but they can be ignored; the relevance they have to our gardening now can be really enlightening. Information is often presented in short 'soundbites', as on the Forums, but longer blogs and diaries are very good too, and potentially more valuable for newcomers who want to share some of the 'down to earth' nature of gardening.

[McGregor]

1. Commentaries on great articles from the past - or 20 articles on American erythroniums - or 10 article son Penstemons etc etc - would be great intros to the archive. I like that.

2. Aren't the Galanthus and Crocus contributions on the SRGC forum rather than the website central (if you take the difference)?

[Tim Ingram]

Yes that's true but it shows how the Forum can adapt to different groups of gardeners at different times, which is what a website must be fundamentally all about if it wants to be as catholic as possible. I think NARGS has a greater link to the 'great outdoors' just because of the immensely varied landscapes and climates of North America (like Matt mentioned earlier), and for me this is a big strength - I love seeing some of these plants in the wild and how gardeners in more extreme climates than mine grow them. (For example photoessays on Denver Botanic Garden and some of the National Parks like Little Big Bend, which I have just been reading about, would be fascinating).

[McDonough]

2. Aren't the Galanthus and Crocus contributions on the SRGC forum rather than the website central (if you take the difference)?

The stats (statistics) of the forums are interesting, quite different if comparing SRGC with NARGS.  Malcolm, you mention the major focus on Galanthus on SRGC, and certainly the metrics bear this out.  The image below (left) shows the Top 10 Boards on SRGC as of today, Galanthus and Crocus take 4th & 5th place respectively. The totals indicate number of posts on each particular board.  Really interesting to see Top 10 Topics (by Views), once again Galanthus takes a strong 4th place, but many of the other favorite boards being viewed come under the category of "community"; Introduction and Birthday Greetings, and as a relief outlet, there is "Moan Moan Moan", 50% counteracted by the "I'm so happy" thread.  I really like Maggi's philosophy on inclusion and endorsement of these tangential boards; Maggi can you summarize again?

The total posts on SRGC is 256,087 at the moment I looked; the Galanthus board with 25,029 posts is approximately 10% of all messages.  NARGS Forum only has 20,659 posts total, we get much less traffic than SRGC, and we haven't been in operation as long.

To be expected, the main interests on NARGS is somewhat different than SRGC, with woodlanders emerging as favorites, although an interest in bulbs in general certainly is appealing to both camps. There also seems a strong budding interest on hardy cacti and succulents on NARGS.

SRGC Forum stats on the left, NARGS Forum stats on the right.

[McGregor]

Hoping to have something on Colorado botanic gardens in the next year along the lines you mention, and this next issue of the Quarterly has the second part of John Weiser's article about Nevada which has much more of an emphasis on those plants he includes in his garden.

Like the website the Quarterly has to reflect a range of content to appeal to everyone some of the time, some of the people all of the time etc. And it has to be able to go out on a limb hoping that members will let it do that. There is no set list of things that get in the Quarterly outside the Bulletin Board. Sometimes its mountain tops in the Caucasus, other times its woodland glades in the Appalachians, other times its how to germinate seeds or make a trough. Its not individual items its the totality. And exactly the same with our web presence.

Some of the stuff that is on and will stay on the website is vital, valuable, but unexciting stuff about NARGS (committees, board members, constitution etc etc) but the really exciting stuff is (exactly like the Quarterly) what comes from members. Much of it goes in the forum, some in the WIKI .....

[IMYoung]

I really like Maggi's philosophy on inclusion and endorsement of these tangential boards; Maggi can you summarize again?

Over time, the Forum of the SRGC has become an enormous resource, with tens of thousands of  plant photos, posts and reports from around the world, in the wild and in gardens public and private  but I think it is important to  remember that as an international club, the forum provides a "local chapter" for all members and the more jokey threads have proved, as the stats confirm, that our community really enjoys a place to have a virtual coffee and a chat and that this relaxed, informal  chance to interact  builds that community spirit and strengthens friendships - and that can only be good  for the club as we go forward.

The Web Team is pleased with the reaction to our  new website, which we have instituted in tandem with some areas still on the old site, but interlinked, of course.

As others have said, it is content that is key for any website.  We hope to have videos and so on in the future but the Forum is likely to remain the place where members are happiest to make their contributions.... it is simple and the opportunity for interaction with others is unlimited and that is something that has proved to be of supreme importance in the success of the forum for us.
While our forum has also had an update, the layout remains simple and largely (we hope! ) intuitive for users to find their way around with ease.

Feedback from  members and everyone to beginners "stumbling" upon the site from an internet search to PHD students working on a thesis has given us great heart.  We wish NARGS all the best in their quest for a new scheme.....

[McGregor]

A couple of days ago Daniel asked about how we would like content to appear

With that in mind, are there any comments on how to accommodate our proposed growing list of new content? Complete subsection for that content type complete with landing page? Placement on the page? Colours? Isolation from other content? Promoted on front page? All ideas are welcome, and sooner is better than later.

Problem is that if we don't know the list of possible content areas it's really hard but I tend to feel that different content areas need a page (never heard it called a "landing page' but I like it). In some cases there may not be much below that page (if anything). In other cases that page may have other things below it.

Some things ought always to be on frontpage - those that people access regularly (Forum and Quarterly online stand out here, and this time of year SeedEx is another and the Bulletin Board might be one of those) , and those that we want new visitors to get to easily (Membership offer, privileges, samples etc, payment page etc.).

Other things might be on the frontpage but they don't need the same prominence - NARGS stuff (committees, Board members etc)

We also want right upfront that sense of what we are about that David, Mark, Tim, and others have mentioned - our love of plants from wild places - mountains, deserts and woodland - and the ways we grow them. And when we talk about rock gardens we are really incredibly open-minded - we want to communicate that.

Another question was about "isolation from other content". If the question is meant to be about visual spacing then my feeling is that having a clear space between images (or boxes on a webpage) helps - I sometimes overlap imgaes int he Quarterly but that's usually to make people recognise that they are closely allied. Usually when they are grouped I give them a clear space and I'd prefer the same - like Brooklyn Botanic Garden and the BBC - both use much the same sort of spacing.

If the question is about content being isolated in separate content areas then I would hope that it would be possible to conceive of the content as a network, reticulated, so that it can be moved across as much as up and down, like a root system.

[Tim Ingram]

One thing I've long felt would be good on the AGS website, and is shown very well on the SRGC opening page, is changing images of landscapes, plants, gardens, shows - this describes the interests of the Societies succinctly and attractively, and is the first thing that anyone's eyes light on. I've no idea how easy this is to do, nor how it can be changed with time, but images from the Wiki for example could be used in this way, changing through the year appropriately.

A title page that has all the important things there all the time, but with change and new things appearing from time to time, would be exciting but presumably also requiring a lot of input from the few people who run it. For example, highlighting items like the Archive might lead to more discussions and insights into this; or the seed exchange, on the huge diversity of strategies that plants have in dispersal and germination of seed; or down to earth practical pieces on cultivation and propagation.

The most interesting websites, as opposed to Forums, about plants tend to be those centred on individuals like Panayoti who are always bringing in new and fascinating information about plants that no-one has heard of! How many people new to a website will immediately gravitate to the Forum, and how many delve into the items on the title page? I agree very much with Malcolm about being incredibly open minded, because all the specialist alpine societies have memberships that go way beyond alpines and that seems their great strength.

[Tim Ingram]

As a quick addendum to this - I think the best book I have on alpine gardening is 'Rocky Mountain Alpines' - Alpines '86, because of its wonderful breadth of coverage, which includes the experience of gardeners from all around the world. It would be a great model for where the website might go, if it's not there already in many respects.

[RickR]

Some things ought always to be on frontpage - ...and this time of year SeedEx is another...

Yes, although the Seed Ex, even when not actually open for business, is commonly looked at throughout the year by nonmember passersby.  Also as previously mentioned, often there should be multiple ways to get to a destination content page.  Like with the seed ex, it is my opinion that it should always be accessible from the front page as well as the page listing membership privileges.

I agree that changing images while viewing a page is good thing.  An important concern is that those image files are not too large.  When NALS redesigned their opening page a couple years ago, their image files were so large that I couldn't navigate the page at all... ever!  I had to block the image first (and something most users, I think, wouldn't know how to do).  My DSL Lite connection averages a bit over 1MB per second.  NALS has since rectified the problem.

[chris.wyse]

Hi,

I'm not very a good at design aesthetics - I'm looking for function.  From my perspective, I want a web site that lets me easily search technical articles, simple lookup of various plants with good descriptions, and good forums.  For plant descriptions (I think these are mainly on the Wiki), I'm looking for images of leaves, flowers, and entire plant, soil pH, gardening zones, country of origin, invasiveness, seed germination info, and general plant culture.  For the forums, I want to be able to easily find the correct forum for my post, probably from an initial page that lists all forums with descriptions.  Gardenweb is a good example of this.  Additionally, I want to be able to quickly search one forum or all of them for information.

I understand that some of the information I want may not be available, and some things may be beyond scope of your contract.  Just throwing in my quick two cents, without really looking into what's currently in place... 

Another useful thing would be the events calendar.  I'd like to see events as soon as I enter the site, probably on a side bar.  I don't want to drill through a few links to find events, only to realize that they haven't been updated.  Additionally, if I login, I'd like to see events for my chapter, or possibly even without a login, just by saving a cookie and displaying events for whatever chapter I looked at last time.

Hopefully this helps a little  --  not sure it really answers your question....  I was really on here hunting for the new 2013 seed exchange list....

Chris

[ddillon]

Thanks all who Replied.
All input is helpful and very welcome.
This thread is by no means closed.

Daniel Dillon