Mukdenia

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RickR
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-09-21

McDonough wrote:

But... Mukdenia "acanthifolia" has rounded leaves without resemblence to spiny leaved plants, thus the paradox.

Yes, rounded leaves, but....
Did you look again at the link you posted, Mark?
http://www.phytograph.co.uk/m/mu/mukdeniaacanthifolia/species.html
Do you see the what looks like prickles at the edge of the leave, look closely...

-----------------------------------

Lori, I didn't even pick up Stearn's book.  I proudly used one of our Chapter member's site: Dictionary of Botancial Epithets.  Chuck's site has an incredibly small file size, too, so it's really good for those people who are still on a dial up internet connection.
http://www.winternet.com/~chuckg/dictionary.html

Rick Rodich    zone 4a.    Annual precipitation ~24 inches
near Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

Moyles
Title: Guest
Joined: 2010-12-23

Try serrated .....

Bill Moyles
Oakland, California

Lori S.
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-10-27

I see serrations on the leaves of Mukdenia rossii but not on the photos of M. acanthifolia leaves that Mark found.  All I see on those is little hairs on the leaf edges.
Unless you are saying, Bill, that your M. acanthifolia do have serrated leaves?

Lori
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Zone 3
-30 C to +30 C (rarely!); elevation ~1130m; annual precipitation ~40 cm

Moyles
Title: Guest
Joined: 2010-12-23

I was referring to pic of "acanthifolium" in the Plantsman article ... obviously serrated ..
I do not have it nor, I guess, does anyone else ??  Where is reality?

Bill Moyles
Oakland, California

Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

Moyles wrote:

I was referring to pic of "acanthifolium" in the Plantsman article ... obviously serrated ..
I do not have it nor, I guess, does anyone else ??  Where is reality?

If the photo of Mukdenia acanthifolia in the Plantsman article shows a plant with serrated leaves, then it is in conflict with the plant grown at Wisley (as shown in the link I posted, & other photos I've seen, and with the description of this species in the article-link I posted).  Of course, the term "serrate" could refer to a leaf edge being minutely serrated, to much more coursely serrate.  

Mukdenia rossii has leaves that are distinctly lobed or serrated, described as having leaf "lobes serrate at margin", easily seen in the species:
http://gardenbreizh.org/photos/karlostachys/photo-199464.html

From what I can tell, M. acanthifolia has entire non-serrated non-lobed leaves, but with fine cilia along the leaf margins (whether these are firm and thorny versus just being ciliate hairs, is another matter).  Also, whether the tiny irregularities in the leaf edge, as seen in the 2nd photo-link below, can constitute the same application of "serrated leaves" as in M. rossii, then language is getting in the way, or the terms are applied without being exact enough, because the photos of M. acanthifolia foliage clearly show whole entire leaves.  Bill, or anyone else with access to Plantsman" (V10:4), can you please scan the information and photo, and post it here under the fair use provision.

Two more photos found showing foliage of M. acanthifolia.  How do the leaves in these photos compare to the Plantsman article photo?
http://www.asianflora.com/Saxifragaceae/Mukdenia-acanthifolia.htm
http://gardenbreizh.org/photos/karlostachys/photo-213666.html

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

Moyles
Title: Guest
Joined: 2010-12-23

Leaves in first link sure look serrated to me ... but .... what difference does this make??

Bill Moyles
Oakland, California

Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

Moyles wrote:

Leaves in first link sure look serrated to me ... but .... what difference does this make??

Correct, the first link in my message above is clearly labelled as Mukdenia rossii, with serrated leaves. Or... are your talking about the first of my two links showing leaves of M. acanthifolia?  Specificity surely helps here.

But we're talking about M. acanthifolia leaf characteristics, with entire leaves without lobes.  Not sure why the confusion, we're only talking about two species.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

Moyles
Title: Guest
Joined: 2010-12-23

The leaves of M rossii and M acanthifolium as pictured are so distinctly different that they could never be confused ... I would never think of the leaves of my rossii as being serrated ... sure, lobed, but ..
What to say?? 

Bill Moyles
Oakland, California

Moyles
Title: Guest
Joined: 2010-12-23

I was referring to http://www.asianflora.com/Saxifragaceae/Mukdenia-acanthifolia.htm
Looks just like the Plantsman example .....

Bill Moyles
Oakland, California

Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

Moyles wrote:

I was referring to http://www.asianflora.com/Saxifragaceae/Mukdenia-acanthifolia.htm
Looks just like the Plantsman example .....

Bill, that's what I'm trying to understand, what do the leaves of M. acanthifolia in the photo in the Plantsman look like... from what you now finally tell us I gather the leaves are ENTIRE, not lobed.

In the link to M. rossii above, the leaves are not only lobed, but have obvious minor serrations along the lobes as well.

You wrote "The leaves of M rossii and M acanthifolium as pictured are so distinctly different that they could never be confused ... I would never think of the leaves of my rossii as being serrated". Of course! In the Flora of China, M. rossii is described as "lobes serrate at margin". One needs to consider the lexicon of the Flora that covers this species.

So... restating the obvious, consistent with what we're seeing in the links provided... M. rossii has deeply lobed leaves, with small serrations along the lobe margins;  M. acanthifolia has entire (un-lobed) leaves, with or without minute leaf serrations and possibly with ciliate edges.  Even more simply put, M. rossii has 5-7 lobed maple-like leaves, M. acanthifolia has simple non-lobed ovate leaves like Bergenia.

Also, the correct species spelling is Mukdenia acanthifolia.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

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