Cremanthodium ID

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Boland
Boland's picture
Title: Member
Joined: 2009-09-25
Cremanthodium ID

I posted this on the general form but really it belongs here. I got this Cremanthodium as C. delavayi. It took 4 years to bloom and boy what a cluster! Anyone want to attempt to give it a name?

Peter George
Title: Member
Joined: 2009-09-03

How tall is the plant? Are the flowers 'nodding?' Do you have any other photos? Maybe one closeup of the flower?

Peter George, Petersham, MA (north central MA, close to the NH/VT borders), zones 5b and 6 around the property.

Boland
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Title: Member
Joined: 2009-09-25

The plant is a little over 2 feet tall.  They are not nodding...rather they are outward facing.  I've grown three species from seeds but the tags got lost.  The others have yet to bloom.  The seeds were ellisiae, delavayi and arnicoides...yet this one does not seem to match either of them.

Todd Boland
St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada
Zone 5b
1800 mm precipitation per year

Peter George
Title: Member
Joined: 2009-09-03

I'd guess that the plant is C. ellisiae, but Chris Chadwell is here in MA this weekend, and will be staying with Mark McDonough over the weekend, and he certainly can identify it. Hopefully Mark gets on the Forum tonight or tomorrow.

Peter George, Petersham, MA (north central MA, close to the NH/VT borders), zones 5b and 6 around the property.

Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

It might help to compare the leaves and the line drawing of said "Cremanthodium delevayi":

Line drawing of Cremanthodium delavayi (3-5):
http://www.plants.csdb.cn/eflora/Photo/ORGFLORA/77%282%29-151.jpg

Line drawing of Cremanthodium arnicoides (6-8):
http://www.plants.csdb.cn/eflora/Photo/ORGFLORA/77%282%29-158.jpg


Other Cremanthodium

Red Cremanthodium
http://flower.onego.ru/anpine/en_2051.jpg

Pink Cremanthodium rhodocephalum (Tibet)
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=8276

Cremanthodium ellisii (Tibet, 5150 m)
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=17367
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=17190

Cremanthodium decaisnei (Tibet, 5180 m)
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=17160

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

Peter George
Title: Member
Joined: 2009-09-03

Chris Chadwell has viewed your photographs and isn't certain which one it is, if it's actually a Cremanthodium. Do you happen to recall the source of the seed? It may be easier for him to identify it if he knew from whence it came.

Peter George, Petersham, MA (north central MA, close to the NH/VT borders), zones 5b and 6 around the property.

Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

Peter wrote:

Chris Chadwell has viewed your photographs and isn't certain which one it is, if it's actually a Cremanthodium. Do you happen to recall the source of the seed? It may be easier for him to identify it if he knew from whence it came.

My guess is that the plant is not a Cremanthodium; maybe a Helianthus species?.  When Chris, his son Matthew, and I visited the Kris Fenderson garden, we saw a rather similar looking "sunflower" that Kris said came to him as a Cremanthodium but all agreed it clearly was not... his plant was taller, about 3' or more.

The reason I posted a number of photo and drawings links of Cremanthodium was to give an idea about what members of this genus look like; with the nodding disposition to the flowers a unifying characteristic.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

Boland
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Title: Member
Joined: 2009-09-25

It is most certainly a Cremanthodium...the cauline leaves clasp the stem...never seen a Helianthus do that!  The basal leaves looks much like ellisiae.  The seeds came from the Reykjavik BG.

Todd Boland
St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada
Zone 5b
1800 mm precipitation per year

Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

Todd wrote:

It is most certainly a Cremanthodium...the cauline leaves clasp the stem...never seen a Helianthus do that!  The basal leaves looks much like ellisiae.  The seeds came from the Reykjavik BG.

Can we see a photo or two of the foliage and the whole plant?  The plant doesn't look much like the two photo links I posted above, from Harry Jans' entries for Cremanthodium ellisii (note spelling) taken in Tibet.

Link to a SRGC photo of Cremanthodium ellisii:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/pport/Cremell.html

More Cremanthodium ellisii links:
http://www.flowersofindia.in/catalog/slides/Himalayan%20Mini%20Sunflower...
http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Pakistan-Karakorum/10569...
http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Pakistan-Karakorum/10569...
http://www.kew.org/news/kew-blogs/alpine-rock-garden/katie-visits-munich...

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

Chadwell
Title: Member
Joined: 2011-06-22

The images do seem to match a Cremanthodium.  Sorry but Cremanthodium is a difficult genus identification-wise. Some species used to be included within Ligularia and Senecio......

The images do not match any Himalayan species I am familiar with, though I have not seen all the Eastern Himalayan ones in flower.  It comes closest to Cremanthodium arnicoides.

Given that the seed arrived as Cremanthodium delavayii, along with its general appearance, my current thinking is that it might be a species from SW China.  Does anyone have a copy of HIMALAYAN PLANTS ILLUSTRATED by Toshio Yoshida?  Can they check the illustrations of Cremanthodiums there - this massive book, includes SW China (I separate the Himalaya from SW China) to see if anything looks similar.  I could then comment further.

Did the seed arrive with a reference or collection number?  Who assigned the original name Cremanthodium delavayii? Where did the botanic garden in Iceland get the original seed from?  If it was from genuine wild provenance, there should be collector's initials and number - then the person/expedition which collected it in China (or wherever) could be contacted, as they may have an update as to identification.

The images of Cremanthodium ellisii posted most recently by Mark do match my understanding of the species in the W.Himalaya incl. the SRGC one which was raised from Chadwell & McKelvie seed but those from Hary Jans do not but they could be a Tibetan (i.e. rain-shadow) extreme-elevation, scree-dwelling variant?

Mark McD
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-12-14

Welcome back Chris (to this side of the virtual pond, that is) glad to see you here and learn of your insights on Cremanthodium.  To add further clues, I almost forgot about my copy of Flowers of the Himalaya by Oleg Polunin and Adam Stainton.  In fair use provisions, I scanned a couple pertinent images of various Cremanthodium, and post them hear.  Regarding the possibility of the subject plant of C. ellisii, this is a single flowered species (one flower per stem), as can be seen in the good photo.  The reason I asked Todd to see the foliage, it seems that Cremanthodiums have bold and distinctive foliage, so seeing a photo of the foliage would certainly help.

Three more species, with the hallmark nodding flowers, C. nepalense, C. oblongatum, and C. reniforme.

Lastly, C. arnicoides, with a spike of flowers, perhaps the closest in appearance to Todd's plant, but I'm still not deliberating on it until we see the foliage and more details.

Chris, you wouldn't like the heat here today (and nearly everyday this July so far), 94 degrees was the high (34 C).  Are there various Cremanthodium species that you anticipate collecting in your seed collecting trip this year to the Himalaya? if anyone is interested in getting seeds of the real McCoys, having your NARGS Chapter buy a share of Chris' upcoming expedition seed sounds like a worthwhile adventure, or perhaps buy a share yourself, or "share a share" with a friend or two. :D

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA, near the New Hampshire border USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com
 

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